Rezatta — VISION DESIGN PHASE

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  • @brcien
    I agree we don't necessarily have to use tokens =) Having a keyworded mechanic representing Art coming to life seems pretty important to me, though! The mechanics are key to convey the theme of the set, living art is not just a detail of the world building, right now it's the single most emblematic aspect of our world in terms of Renaissance tropes as it defines how it's inspired by Renaissance and how it's a unique MTG world that's not just trying to be real world Renaissance. It's actually showing to players what Renaissance means on Rezatta. In that regard, I think it's even more useful than "Rebirth" that is just telling without really showing, at least until we figure out out what it means flavourfully to be reborn.
    Can you imagine Amonkhet without the Embalm mechanic? It was the first mechanic designed for the set because it's key to defining the world. I really think the Living Art mechanic (whatever we end up calling it) is the Embalm of Rezatta ^^ On top of all that, it's an unmissable opportunity to make a super flavourful mechanic! x)

    I'm curious, who'd consider having no Art-coming-to-life mechanic at all in the set?

    @Faiths_Guide
    Oh, I see, that would be ideal, but it would require the Art-coming-to-life mechanic to be compatible with blue, otherwise we end up in case C. Right now, the hasty aspect of Compose is feeling like a break in Blue, which is why we could use an alternative mechanic to represent the same thing. Even beyond the fact that Blue would be left out of most set mechanics, I don't think we can have a colour caring about Art, as you were mentioning, without giving it access to the set mechanic producing Art creatures.
    ______

    Meanwhile, here's another version of the same mechanic above, this time with the Art identity being more subtle, I kept the the title in inverted and I used non-digital illustrations with vivid colours:

    image image image image


    The idea is to explore possibilities to make creatures in the set coming to life out of Art without the use of tokens.

  • edited August 2018
    @ningyounk
    Yes, blue should still be able to produce its own art with the original ability. I don't think that's a big enough "break" to be concerned with within a main set ability.

    Should a comma be added to the quotation in the reminder text?
    Living Art [cost] (If you cast this for [cost], it's a creature spell. Add "When this creature dies," at the beginning of its rules text.)
  • edited August 2018
    @Faiths_guide
    "I don't think that's a big enough "break" to be concerned with within a main set ability": that's what really concerns me :/ After testing the UR build of Compose, it's a bit too much haste, Blue is not supposed to be that aggressive, it really feels wrong. Normally, the right answer would have been to move the ability to colours where it feels more at home (here it would be Jund), but if we do that we get the problem of Blue being the last in every set mechanic basically >.< Which is why I'm proposing to search for a twist in the mechanic that removes haste, so Blue can have access to it.

    I'm still going to do some research on Blue and haste to see if I'm overreacting but it felt too Red for me in playtest.

    Theoretically yes, there should be a comma, I just thought it looked a little cleaner without it (our brain automatically tends to interpret it as part of the sentence even if its in inverted) and I didn't think it could lead to misinterpretation. That said, I'd really like to know what the majority of people feel is the most natural, as it's mostly a subjective feel? If we follow on this idea a little further, I'll make a little poll for the comma.
  • I think this is where conceptual art lords can really come into play. Maybe art gets more instant speed tricks and are still sacrificed, (which fits in izzet colors) but art “lords” can apply keywords to them to make them unique, like branding your own style of art, preferably a cycle. Like, each is a different kind of artist. Ones a painter, one’s a sculptor, one’s a dancer, one’s a musician, and one’s skilled at the “art” of thievery. That last one’s iffy, obviously.
  • edited August 2018
    So, I did a little research on previous instances where Blue got access to haste:

    1) Old cards where Blue untapped creatures it stole and gave them haste. As you know, this ability is now exclusive to Red. (Act of Treason)

    2) Creating clones and illusions for a turn. (Reins of Power, Shifty Dopplegander,etc.)

    3) Three mechanics: Awaken, Unearth and Suspend.

    Suspend and Unearth don't have the "surprise attacker" aspect of regular haste, but Awaken certainly does, like Compose. I think what made Awaken fine in Blue though was that you couldn't awaken a land before you had 5-mana.

    Looking back at what bothered me with my playtest on Compose, it was mostly some very Red play patterns where I'd use my blue card to remove a blocker and chip in an early point of damage. So maybe Blue *can* have access to Compose if we make sure that you don't get early hasty attackers with blue Compose cards?

    For instance, the first card is probably too agressive for Blue, but the second one should be fine:

    image image


    Also, do you think we could find a name that's conveying the concept of Art coming to life more? That's one of the cool things about the name "Living Art", it's much more flavourful. Maybe a neologism like "Artnimate"? Or simply have the token named "Living Art" instead of just "Art"?

    E.g:

    image

  • @ningyounk
    Very smart solution.

    I don't think we should name the tokens "Living Art," but I think that we could come up with a reasonable alternate that still conveys living art for an ability. Animate could be fine alone, or enliven or similar. Anything that conveys "giving life too," such as vitalize.
  • @Faiths_Guide
    Note that above I actually named the mechanic "ARTnimate" as in Art + Animate, I don't know how you guys feel about that kind of made-up names? ^^ A few examples :

    - Artnimate
    - Artrise
    - Artsoul
    - Artify

    There are also the option of two-words names but I don't know how well it reads if you add N to them. A few examples:

    - Ensoul Art N
    - Art Up N
    - Animate Art N

    We could also use a flavourful name for psylian life, since we're at it. If we manage to let it convey the Renaissance meaning we coulg get rid of Rebirth entirely and get down to four mechanics. Here are a few tries:

    - You gain 2 new life
    - You gain 2 second life
    - You gain 2 renewed life
    - You gain 2 reborn life
    - You gain 2 Rezalife
  • Artnimate sounded too clunky. I suggested animate on purpose.
  • I made a little resume of how complex the mechanics of each main set since Battle for Zendikar were, so we can see where we're at with Rezatta. Note that, at least until Amonkhet, WOTC has considered all of them to be a little more complex than they wanted. Battle for Zendikar being a huge outlier mechanic wise.

    image


    Here's what the stars mean:

    WORDINESS — How wordy is it? Words limit inspired from the New World Order article.
    0 star = 12 or less words
    1 star = 13 to 22 words
    2 stars = 23 to 29 words
    3 stars = 30+ words

    FLASHINESS — Is the mechanic bringing something new to MTG?
    0 star = We've seen many cards with a similar concept before, or returning mechanic.
    1 star = Has at least one new element to it. (E.g: Historic brings the batching concept.)
    2 stars = Has multiple new things. (E.g: Embalm = flashback creatures + unique tokens.)
    3 stars = New card frame or game concept.

    SYNERGY — Does it help the mechanical heart of the set?
    0 star = Has nothing to do with the mechanical theme. (E.g.: Kicker is for nostalgia.)
    1 star = Incidentally synergizes with set theme. (E.g: Raid triggers from the tribes.)
    2 stars = Synergizes with an important subtheme or pushes the main theme. (E.g.: Sagas aren't legendary but they still count for Historic.)
    3 stars = Helps the main theme function correctly. (E.g: Historic cares about legendary.)

    FLAVOUR — Does it help understand the flavour of the set?
    0 star = Has nothing to do with the flavour of the world. (E.g.: Cycling is flavourless.)
    1 star = Shows a detail of the world. (E.g.: Enrage shows a detail about Dinosaurs.)
    2 stars = Helps push a flavourful aspect important to the story. (E.g: Rally tells you one side of the war is the Allies.)
    3 stars = Sells the main point of the set and/or helps flesh out a difficult concept flavourfully. (E.g: Sagas flesh out the nostalgia theme.)

    Now, here's where I think Rezatta is right now:

    image


    Here are the things that I think could be improved:
    - We probably need to remove at least one mechanic.
    - The mix of mechanics is too wordy. We need to shorten some mechanics.
    - Psylian life needs a flavourful name.
    - Elated can probably sell the emotion theme by itself if we find the right name.
    - Compose could also sell the Art-Magically-Coming-to-Life theme better with the right name.
    - Discover is too wordy for what it brings to the set (some vague flavour points.) Since we also need a mechanic that helps Blue in the set, it probably needs to be rethought into something shorter.
    - Rebirth is supposed to be all about selling the Renaissance theme but as we can't find the right flavour for what it does, it's only doing an ok-ish job at it while being wordy and non-synergistic. Since it's not really doing the job it was there for (we don't need a blink mechanic, we need a Renaissance flavour) I suggest that we remove it and put the Renaissance theme in the name of psylian life.

    All sets have only one mechanic that's above 22 words. I think psylian life is an exception since it's not making the cards any lengthier, but it's a lot to remember. Still I think we could afford one mechanic that's 22+ words, but the remaining two (?) mechanics need to be short. Somewhere below 15 words if possible (Elated being one already.)
  • I've been trying to find a different kind of mechanic to represent art coming to life recently. Instead of focusing of the action of coming to life, I'm trying to see if it's possible to give that sensation of "That shouldn't be breathing!" through unconventional art styles like the Sagas, and then tie Art creatures mechanically to give them a distinct feel.

    This is basically like the GDS3 challenge 1 where they have to take a creature type and give it an identity. Here, the creature type is Art. What could it mean mechanically?

    There are multiple ways to answer that question, one of the answers I like the most is that you get to shape Art to your liking. In Magic, this could be represented with choices, copying, adding abilities, changing stats, switching between card types, +1/+1 counters etc.

    I tried something close to how the Kozilek's brood was handled in Oath of the Gatewatch, and created a keyword that could be featured on the Art creatures to help make them feel like a unique tribe:


    image image


    image image


    It's nowhere near finished. Right now it's a little long and it's a bit weird that the Art is shaping other stuff instead of it being shaped. I just wanted to share some thoughts, see if anyone has some ideas?
  • @ningyounk
    With a set this complex, I'm really not liking the addition of this big of a "memory issue" ability.
  • @Faiths_Guide
    True, it does create memory issues :/ There probably won't be an easy way to make a tribe that you can add abilities on without creating some memory issues. Maybe some choice using counters like Unleash?

    I was also thinking the saboteur trigger (when this creature deals combat damage to an opponent) could work great to give the Art creatures a tribe feel. It works great with the life-matters theme and Art creates emotions in people (and so far emotions have been a good flavour for life swings.) If we can find the right reward, maybe putting "Living Art (When this creature deals combat damage to a player, REWARD.)" On every Art creature could be the way to go. Renown worked great as a saboteur mechanic in Origins.
    On top of that, the saboteur trigger is heavily used in blue and red, the two colours that don't have access to life gain and would need some more mechanical support.
  • @ningyounk
    I do like me some saboteur triggers! Maybe that's a smart direction to go.
  • edited August 2018
    Hi everyone. This may be a weird suggestion, but might a returning mechanic be quite good? I was looking at Living Art and it seems like evoke would be flavorful without creating so many rules questions. Unless you want the mechanics all to be unique. You might have discarded living art already, in which case ignore me. Similarly ignore me if evoke doesn't work at all and I'm being foolish.

    3BB Archfiend of Imperfections
    Creature - Demon
    Flying
    Evoke 1B
    When Archfiend of Imperfections enters the battlefield each opponent loses 3 life and you gain 3 life.
    5/4

    This guy may be way too complex, but just to demonstrate what I mean. The demon represents the idea of imperfections and can be evoked (in a piece of art) to blight the opponent or fully summoned.

    2RR Spirit of Fugue
    Creature - Elemental
    Evoke R
    When Spirit of Fugue enters the battlefield, compose 3.
    3/3
  • edited August 2018
    @Undead
    No, you're right! We could use a returning mechanic to create the mechanical link between Art creatures. The first Living Art mechanic above comes directly from Evoke ^^ I was trying to find a different twist on it because:
    1) I prefer to avoid returning mechanics when we can in custom sets because you expect more flashiness from them than a regular set. That said, I'm all in if we find a cool twist on the way to use it, for instance how kicker was first brought back with non-mana costs or off colours costs etc...
    2) Finding a twist allows to change the name, and Living Art would be more flavourful than Evoke for instance.
    3) I find that Evoke actually looks more like a creature that failed its landing more than a spell taking creature form xD I always imagine that the creature forgot to open it's parachute before coming onto the battlefield when you evoke it x) That said, spells becoming creatures was the original intent of WOTC so if they chose to reverse it, they definitely had good reasons ^^

    So using Evoke, or any returning mechanic, would definitely be possible but preferentially it would have to be a really good fit and have some kind of twist to justify taking space away from potential cool new stuff we could do instead ^^
  • edited August 2018
    I see what you mean. Living art wants to be a spell first, then for even more it can be a creature and a spell, whereas evoke wants to be a creature, then for a discount price it can be fired off as a spell. It's a question of perspective, really. You're right, living art is more flavorful.
    Also, love all the Living Art names being is speech marks. That's super flavorful and cool and breaks away from magic naming conventions in a fun way.
    Keep up the good work.
  • Trying to find an interesting Saboteur trigger. It doesn't necessarily have an art flavour, it's just a way of saying "On this plane, this is how Art works".

    image image image



    Taking a step back, I think I'd be satisfied to have the "art coming to life" flavour coming only from the weird illustration styles and name formatting. It looks unique enough that I believe the "This shouldn't be a living creature" reaction is still there without the mechanical aspect showing it coming to life, at least for me.
  • Now digging in a different direction, still mixing Saboteur triggers with Evoke-like bits of mechanics. The idea is that instead of Evoking the Art, you compose it. It has different possible levels of parasiticism:

    1) High parasiticism — You need Artist creatures to compose Art creatures.

    image image


    In this version the only way to compose an Art creature is by triggering an Artist (different artists have different triggers). This version has a lot of developmental problems (composing is basically buyback + evoke without an alternative cost as a knob to balance it) but this is how the idea started so I thought it was interested to share this.


    2) Low paraticism — You don't need Artist creatures to compose Art creatures.

    image image


    In this version, composing an Art is just like Evoking, except it has some weird bonus interactions that can be exploited with Artist creatures to create some synergies. I'm not super fond that it doesn't interact with regular counterspells though, considering how close it feels to casting an instant/sorcery spell.


    3) Medium paraticism — You need any creature to compose an Art, but Artists are better.

    image image


    In this version, any creature can compose an Art on a Saboteur trigger. However, Artists have added value when you compose with them, just like Pilot creatures have added value when you crew a Vehicle with them in Kaladesh.

    image
  • Last version seems best currently. But now, "Living art" feels counter-intuitive because using it doesn't play the art as a creature.
  • edited August 2018
    @Faiths_Guide
    True, this version may need another name.
    I'm still unsure how to word the reminder text properly though, I don't think the time restriction in the cost works?

    __________

    Also, here's the Evoke-like mechanic pushed to its most extreme form, for a test:

    image


    I used a flavourless name because that would likely be a mechanic WOTC would re-use if popular so tying it to an Art flavour would be a bit unrealistic I believe.
  • @ningyounk. You may be on the right path with this, like how vehicles are artifacts until crewed, art cards could be enchantments and/ or instants and sorceries that have a trigger to turn them into a creature permanently or temporarily
  • Sorry to butt in again, but I'm really fascinated by the process here.

    The transform ability is really cool and I think works very well. Perhaps you could have it like this @ningyounk :

    Living art - When this spell resolves, if X condition is met, exile it, then return it to the battlefield transformed.

    Then the creature on the other side.

    So... maybe:

    "Tears of an Angel" 2BB
    Destroy target creature, you gain psylian life equal to its power.
    Living art - When this spell resolves, if an opponent controls no creatures, exile it, then return it to the battlefield transformed.

    Other side

    "Tears of an Angel" (or maybe some other name)
    Flying
    4/4
  • I like the transform version but it just wouldn't be good in a play environment. Have we considered Split cards that have a creature side and an instant/sorcery side. That's probably pretty random but I feel there are so many directions you can take this.
  • @brcien
    That's exactly what the DFC would be, a big split card (as we don't have access to split cards on MTGCardsmith anyway.) ^^

    @Undead
    It's funny because that's basically how the first version of Compose worked (it was only for instant/sorcery and was called Virtuoso at that time): You cast a spell and then created an Art token representing the spell coming to life ^^

    What I really like with your version is that it gives a feeling of accomplishment, which is something we talked about when we had the conversation about the feel of the set.

    Using it as an ability word would create some friction with Elated (or whatever we end up calling the life-matters mechanic) as you usually want to diversify the type of mechanics you're using (keyword abilities, ability words, action words, etc...).

    Finding the right form for this iteration is not that simple though. Using it without any other marker than the Art type and the weird templating (inverted, unusual illustration types, centering, etc.) would probably remove too much focus, it's an important part of the world, a dedicated named mechanic is the best way to draw attention to it. Also the keywords count of the set would start to go a little low.

    On the other hand, we could make it an additional cost like so (Ok I used an alternative cost for length reason, it works the same xD):

    2BB
    Tears of an Angel
    Instant
    Destroy target creature. You gain psylian life equal to its power.
    Living Art 4BB (Then, if you cast this spell for 4BB, return it from your graveyard onto the battlefield transformed.)

    It has the advantage of still acting as a mana sink (we'll need a mechanic that helps you spend the extra mana produced by psylian life and Rebirth might be removed at this point) but we lose the possibility of tailoring a different trigger on every card to fit what it's doing :/ On the other hand, having a specific trigger on each card would increase the wordiness and overall complexity of the set quite sensibly (though it's still possible to commit to it, but that means removing complexity elsewhere.)
  • I feel like the art shouldn't be a one of... Maybe make it repetitive?

    Tears of an Angel
    2BB Instant
    Destroy target creature. You gain psylian life equal to its power.
    Living Art 5BB (If you cast this spell for its Living Art cost, instead create a X/X colorless art creature token with "Whenever this creature enters the battlefield or attacks, you may cast a copy of the exiled spell without paying its mana cost", where X is this spell's converted mana cost.)

    I'll admit, this seems too wordy and complicated, and is pretty close to Cipher...
  • @Lyndon
    Yeap, the reminder text is over 50 words right now, ideally a reminder text should be under 22 words when possible ^^ I'm not even sure this fits on a card, the exile part is missing from the reminder text yet, and it still needs more text to do anything ;)

    But I get the concept, a clean way to do this would probably be to use the DFC technology just like above! I just replaced the attack trigger with a Saboteur trigger to let the opponent interact more easily:

    2BB
    Tears of an Angel
    Instant - Art
    Alternative (You may cast either side of this card.)
    Destroy target creature. You gain psylian life equal to its power.
    //
    4BB
    Tears of an Angel
    Creature - Art Angel
    4/4
    Alternative (You may cast either side of this card.)
    Flying
    Whenever CARDNAME enters the battlefield or deals combat damage to an opponent, you may destroy target creature. If you do, you gain psylian life equal to its power.

  • Hang on... I just realised you don't need to put in the "Alternative" keyword. You can try split cards!
    (But the rules are going to be complicated and it'll probably look weird)

    The tears 2BB
    Instant - Art
    Destroy target creature. You gain psylian life equal to its toughness.
    //
    Of An Angel 4BB
    Creature - Art Angel
    Flying
    Living Art (Whenever ~ etbs or deals combat damage to an opponent, you may cast the other half of this card without paying its mana cost.)
    4/4


  • edited August 2018
    @LyndonF
    Yes, as I was saying to brcien above, alternative is basically a big split card except we don't have split cards on Mtgcardsmith but we could consider making DFC as just two cards ^^

    I like how you made it work though, by casting the other half on a trigger!
  • Here's a simple combat-relevant keyword that could be a way of tying the Art creatures mechanically:

    image


    Evasion abilities synergize with the main theme since it allows to deal damage to the opponent more easily. It also has some interesting interactions with pump spells, shrink spells, and Saboteur abilities. Flavourfully, having power = toughness have been flavoured as beauty in past Magic wich could fit Art creatures pretty easily ^^
  • Hey ningyounk! This set is coming along beautifully, and I really like "Living art" because it feels a lot like Gilt-Leaf Winnower and I love that card! Keep doing what you do!
This discussion has been closed.