Yungdrotha, the Cosmic Plane - Set Design
Hi all,
I'm resetting this discussion so people just looking at this set for the first time can understand what is going on, without all of the confusion (This time, I'm starting from scratch, so I'm feeling very confident in where this is going).
If you are curious about the original discussion (Warning: it's confusing and unnecessary to look at because basically everything is scrapped), I'll link it here:
https://forums.mtgcardsmith.com/discussion/5603/yungdrotha-the-cosmic-plane-theme-planning/p1
What is Yungdrotha?
Yungdrotha is a fantasy-themed space set (so no astronauts or spaceships) that is so large, that it's almost like a multiverse of its own.
Since worldbuilding isn't completed quite yet, I can't tell you what is going to be in this plane, but I can tell you some of the themes and tropes that will be in this set. Note that these themes and tropes have not been decided as major themes, or if they should be used as a base for a few cards (Except astral, which I'll describe):
As of now, we are coming up with concepts for astral cards in order to decide on how they will work mechanically. Then, we can look at another thing on the list, and see if it will be a major theme, a mechanic, or just a single card.
I'm resetting this discussion so people just looking at this set for the first time can understand what is going on, without all of the confusion (This time, I'm starting from scratch, so I'm feeling very confident in where this is going).
If you are curious about the original discussion (Warning: it's confusing and unnecessary to look at because basically everything is scrapped), I'll link it here:
https://forums.mtgcardsmith.com/discussion/5603/yungdrotha-the-cosmic-plane-theme-planning/p1
What is Yungdrotha?
Yungdrotha is a fantasy-themed space set (so no astronauts or spaceships) that is so large, that it's almost like a multiverse of its own.
Since worldbuilding isn't completed quite yet, I can't tell you what is going to be in this plane, but I can tell you some of the themes and tropes that will be in this set. Note that these themes and tropes have not been decided as major themes, or if they should be used as a base for a few cards (Except astral, which I'll describe):
- Astrals - Astrals are a brand new creature type in Yungdrotha. They are (someimes giant) space creatures that are made up of stars, moons, and other cosmic matter. Astrals will be enchantment creatures, but they may be enchantments that turn into creatures or are creature enchantments that can be played as non-creature enchantments. As only the main theme is decided, how they work mechanically isn't decided on yet.
Here's what some astrals will look like (They don't have an exact appearance, some are humanoid, but others can look like animals):
- Sun, Moon, and Eclipses - This does have a high chance of being another major theme.
- Meteorites
- Void
- Gravity
- Aliens - There will probably be at most one alien race to prevent the set from feeling too much like a sci-fi set and not a fantasy one.
- Wormholes & Black Holes
- Planets & Stars
- Destruction of Planets and Stars
- Warped Space-Time
- Some cards representing made-up star signs or ones that resemble real-life constellations
- If the sun and moon become a major theme, Arlinn Kord may be one of the planeswalkers in this set.
- Since the plane is so large, other planes can bleed into it from time to time, allowing non-planeswalkers to travel to it. (This one might be scrapped if it just doesn't fit, but I think it could be cool to reference other mechanics, similar to how Theros Beyond Death did "heroic")
As of now, we are coming up with concepts for astral cards in order to decide on how they will work mechanically. Then, we can look at another thing on the list, and see if it will be a major theme, a mechanic, or just a single card.
Comments
Mine definitely need a rework on formatting, but this is just to create how astrals are going to work, there are no need for making cards asthetically pleasing just yet.
Here are some cards that @ningyounk created. Personally, I feel that once they become creatures, they essentially gain indestructible (Which would definitely feel strong if a bunch of common creatures had it), but again, this is all just concepts, nothing here is final.
I do believe the planet mechanic I posted earlier has some potential to be fun and give the set a unique feel though, with some tweaking ^^
I'm going to look at other possible ways to make Astral creatures work, but here is something anyways.
The can't attack or block version is definitely also an option if you want to go in the direction of noncreature permanents that become large creatures in the late game. All of those mechanics are quite reminiscent of how Gods have been handled in the past, which might be a good thing from a flavour perspective:
For Terraforming, that much ramp would probably warp the set very intensely (it's not impossible though, Zendikar has found ways to do this with eldrazis) and giving this kind of ramp to nongreen colours might be a bit much as colour-bending goes. I'd say the "fixed" version of this mechanic already exists in the game, it's the modal double-faced cards from Zendikar Rising:
I made another version of Doomstar Behemoth with a mechanic that takes elements from both the first version and the Terraforming version.
I was thinking of adding on a scry etb effect with Starshape. It might be a little wordy and boring, but I think that it could help push it in the direction of being an ok mechanic. I mean, I would want to do a more flashy effect, but I don't know what would fit in colorless territory.
Have you also considered the Meld technology for your astrals? That's something that has been used only once in the game (and at the time they didn't have the technology to have both cards in the same pack consistently, but now they do), there's a lot of variations you could do on that theme, and it definitely has the feeling of something bigger than life and otherwordly.
The example wont be anything related to this set, its just going to give an example on how the mechanic would work.
Basically, when you cast a card for its starshape cost, you pick an ability from up to two options based on the mana you spent to cast it (One option if you spent two of the same mana). Each option is an etb effect based on a 2 mana instant of that color. If you spent:
- White: "When this enters the battlefield, create two 1/1 white Astral enchantment creature tokens. (Or two 1/1 white Soldier creature tokens if that's better)"
Replicates Raise the Alarm- Blue: "When this enters the battlefield, look at the top three cards of your library, put one of those cards into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library."
Replicates Anticipate- Black: "When this enters the battlefield, target creature gets -3/-3 until end of turn"
Replicates Last Gasp- Red: "When this enters the battlefield, this deals 3 damage to any target."
Replicates Lightning Strike- Green: "When this enters the battlefield, target creature gains +4/+4 until end of turn."
Replicates Titanic Growth- Colorless: "When this enters the battlefield, (create a meteorite token?)" (I'm not sure what the colorless ability would do yet.)
For example, if you cast a card for its starshape cost by paying one blue and one red mana, that enchantment enters the battlefield with your choice of the blue effect, or the red effect.Obviously, this wouldn't fit on a card, so instead, they would be on little rules cards in the back of the pack (If they still put those rule cards in packs).
It could be possible that this mechanic has leaped from unbelievably weak to overwhelmingly strong, and it would be replicating the same types of effects across all rarities, so maybe this is a little overboard when it comes to power. Would mini versions of each effect be much more balanced? (Red dealing 1 damage, green giving +1/+1, etc.)
Mini versions could be:
Blue: "When this enters the battlefield, scry 1."
Black: "When this enters the battlefield, target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn."
Red: "When this enters the battlefield, this deals 1 damage to any target."
Green: "When this enters the battlefield, target creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn."
Here's an uncommon card using this possible mechanic:
That being said, it is quite complex (which is not a deal breaker, you are allowed one very complicated mechanic in your set if it's super fun and it's core to its identity) and — more problematic — it feels super repetitive. Having half the cards in the set be the same effect doesn't sound fun. In addition, what's exciting about morphed creatures is that you don't know when it's going to flip and what it's going to be. With Astrals, I know it's most likely a very large creature I don't have to care about until we reach the late game, and it's probable that in most games they won't ever flip.
What I'm thinking of for this sun and moon mechanic is similar to the contraptions in unstable, but without a special deck, and with two modes instead of three. When you play your first Sunrise/Nightfall card each game (Possible name for the mechanic), you begin your own day-night cycle (Each player will have their own cycle), that swaps at the beginning of your upkeep (You will start the cycle with day if the card you play has sunrise, and start with night if the card you play has Nightfall). Most Sunrise/Nightfall cards will have effects based on whether you are on day or night (Except for probably a few cards that would just mess with the cycle in general).
The only troublesome part of this would be to format it, but I think it would be a fun effect.
Because of this day-night mechanic, I'm thinking that maybe the astral mechanic could be something similar to evoke, but instead of sacrificing, you can just play it as a noncreature enchantment. (Basically just giving you the etb effect on a permanent, without it actually being a creature.)
If they need to be super large, maybe you could consider having them as a single cycle of higher rarity cards; Something exciting to open that doesn't necessarily have a keyworded mechanic, just a looser mechanical theme, like Gods on Theros or Amonkhet.
I think that having smaller Astrals would be fine. Maybe the smaller Astrals mostly deal with enchantments (This could possibly be one of the ways constellation can be used in the set), and bigger Astrals mostly have the option to be played as noncreature enchantments (Some smaller Astrals could have starshape, and some bigger Astrals could have Constellation abilities, but the majority of smaller ones would have constellation, and the bigger ones would have starshape).
Here's an example:
I just realized that I should be aware of any possible flicker effects when it comes to these big Astrals. If you flicker a noncreature one, it would return as a creature, so I can't give a very small cost to a very big creature. (A turn three 10/10 or whatever doesn't sound fun).
I made an idea card for starshape, but even this one feels like it's pushed in terms of stats and abilities for the alternate cost (When it comes to flicker effects):
The wording on Starshape might need to change, but I like the direction that it's going in.
This would also make your set an enchantment-matters set de facto, so I should pull the Theros alarm right now and mention this is giving me some strong Theros vibes with Astrals replacing Gods, especially if you're considering using Constellation. If you go in that direction, you should find a twist that neatly separate your set from Theros - or maybe consider making this a Theros set with a space theme.
I feel like maybe it would be a good idea to look for other possible mechanics, and see if Astrals could tie into them as well?
You might have seen my idea for a "day-night cycle" mechanic that's inspired by contraptions in unstable (without some contraption deck). Instead of the three sprockets, it would be just two modes, day and night. It might be a bit confusing at first, but I think once I create a few cards, it might make a bit more sense, and can be polished from there.
This 'space sci-fi astral cycle' theme seems very consistent in this set, and it seems really cool. You've set yoursellf a hard task with building a world, and I will now relate to Ravnica.
Over the 15 years we've had with them, have they changed? Yes. For the better? Arguably. Change is natural, and the themes weren't too consistent. So, the standing out theme is cool, but, like I said, we can't let it dominate the set.
Starshape definitely has potential, but at first it was too similar to morph. It seems pretty original, but something about it feels....improvable.
You're right. Just as ningyounk mentioned earlier, the creature enchantment part is making this seem too close to Theros, which is why I am going to take away constellation as a primary mechanic (I think there could be one or two psudeo-constellation cards, like how Theros Beyond Death did heroic with these, but it won't be a major mechanic). I like the idea of having a bit of an enchantment theme, which is why I want to keep starshape to some kind of extent (I think it might be just an alternate cost to play a creature as a noncreature enchantment instead, because I do have a crazy idea for a sun and moon mechanic, which you can see above).
Since Astrals are diverse in their shapes, sizes, and are sometimes made up of different things (stars, moons, etc.), I think it would definitely make sense that they are not all doing the same thing (which was enchantment matters). As I said earlier, I think I'm going to look at some of my other primary themes, and determine if Astrals could tie into it, with varying levels of how involved they would be.
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