Yungdrotha, the Cosmic Plane - Set Design

edited March 2021 in Custom Card Sets
Hi all,

I'm resetting this discussion so people just looking at this set for the first time can understand what is going on, without all of the confusion (This time, I'm starting from scratch, so I'm feeling very confident in where this is going)

If you are curious about the original discussion (Warning: it's confusing and unnecessary to look at because basically everything is scrapped), I'll link it here:
https://forums.mtgcardsmith.com/discussion/5603/yungdrotha-the-cosmic-plane-theme-planning/p1


What is Yungdrotha?

Yungdrotha is a fantasy-themed space set (so no astronauts or spaceships) that is so large, that it's almost like a multiverse of its own.

Since worldbuilding isn't completed quite yet, I can't tell you what is going to be in this plane, but I can tell you some of the themes and tropes that will be in this set. Note that these themes and tropes have not been decided as major themes, or if they should be used as a base for a few cards (Except astral, which I'll describe):
  • Astrals - Astrals are a brand new creature type in Yungdrotha. They are (someimes giant) space creatures that are made up of stars, moons, and other cosmic matter. Astrals will be enchantment creatures, but they may be enchantments that turn into creatures or are creature enchantments that can be played as non-creature enchantments. As only the main theme is decided, how they work mechanically isn't decided on yet.
Here's what some astrals will look like (They don't have an exact appearance, some are humanoid, but others can look like animals):




  • Sun, Moon, and Eclipses - This does have a high chance of being another major theme.
  • Meteorites
  • Void
  • Gravity
  • Aliens - There will probably be at most one alien race to prevent the set from feeling too much like a sci-fi set and not a fantasy one.
  • Wormholes & Black Holes
  • Planets & Stars
  • Destruction of Planets and Stars
  • Warped Space-Time
Some other ideas I've thought of:
  • Some cards representing made-up star signs or ones that resemble real-life constellations
  • If the sun and moon become a major theme, Arlinn Kord may be one of the planeswalkers in this set.
  • Since the plane is so large, other planes can bleed into it from time to time, allowing non-planeswalkers to travel to it. (This one might be scrapped if it just doesn't fit, but I think it could be cool to reference other mechanics, similar to how Theros Beyond Death did "heroic")
(I may be forgetting something, but I think that everything here should give you a good idea of what this set is going to be like. If you have any questions, feel free to ask!)

As of now, we are coming up with concepts for astral cards in order to decide on how they will work mechanically. Then, we can look at another thing on the list, and see if it will be a major theme, a mechanic, or just a single card.
«13

Comments

  • Here are the astral concepts so far

    Mine definitely need a rework on formatting, but this is just to create how astrals are going to work, there are no need for making cards asthetically pleasing just yet.

    Here are some cards that @ningyounk created. Personally, I feel that once they become creatures, they essentially gain indestructible (Which would definitely feel strong if a bunch of common creatures had it), but again, this is all just concepts, nothing here is final.


  • edited March 2021
    For the record though, this was an example of how to make creatures feel weird and alien, but I don't think it would be a particularly fun or balanced mechanic XD

    I do believe the planet mechanic I posted earlier has some potential to be fun and give the set a unique feel though, with some tweaking  ^^
  • edited March 2021
    For reference, here are those planets that ningyounk is talking about.
      


  • To go on the idea of some Astrals starting as non-creature enchantments, here's something that is probably worded really badly:

    I'm going to look at other possible ways to make Astral creatures work, but here is something anyways.

  • I was going to make a version where they are always creatures, but just can't attack or block until something, but then I remembered fling.
  • edited March 2021
    I came up with another idea that revolves more around lands, rather than enchantments. I think something enchantment-related would work better for astrals, but here it is anyway.

    I think Terraforming seems a bit powerful, giving you access to extra lands. Although I see some potential. I don't think that it would work best on astrals, but it could work on some other cards (A card that can be either an enchantment creature OR a land seems a bit much). Maybe Terraforming could be tested around something else.
  • @feralitator

    The can't attack or block version is definitely also an option if you want to go in the direction of noncreature permanents that become large creatures in the late game. All of those mechanics are quite reminiscent of how Gods have been handled in the past, which might be a good thing from a flavour perspective:

     

    For Terraforming, that much ramp would probably warp the set very intensely (it's not impossible though, Zendikar has found ways to do this with eldrazis) and giving this kind of ramp to nongreen colours might be a bit much as colour-bending goes. I'd say the "fixed" version of this mechanic already exists in the game, it's the modal double-faced cards from Zendikar Rising:

     


  • I think I like the idea of Astrals being non-creature enchantments becoming enchantment creatures rather than a can't attack or block clause, especially flavor-wise. For the non-creature enchantment route, I think it gives that "at first glance you see nothing, but you realize that it actually is a creature" vibe pretty well. Whereas a creature that just can't attack or block feels like it's always there, so it doesn't give that same mysterious feeling that the non-creature route does.


    I made another version of Doomstar Behemoth with a mechanic that takes elements from both the first version and the Terraforming version.


  • For this concept, it totally would work but there are already two mechanics in the game that do bascially the same thing minus the enchantment synergy but with a better wording. If you only take the first ability, you have the Evoke mechanic (it's better if you cast the spell as opposed to use an activated ability to put it onto the battlefield by the way, for counter magic purpose). If you take the last ability into account, then your mechanic becomes Adventure:

     
  • edited March 2021
    Well, I have another idea that is similar to morph, but enchantments instead. I think it's pretty bad right now, but maybe adding an additional effect will make it better?



    I was thinking of adding on a scry etb effect with Starshape. It might be a little wordy and boring, but I think that it could help push it in the direction of being an ok mechanic. I mean, I would want to do a more flashy effect, but I don't know what would fit in colorless territory.
  • well i think starshape is cool
  • Starshape is pretty original, face-down permanents have a lot of unexplored design space and can be pretty exciting. Obviously, having an enchantment that does nothing is not going to be worth much though, so it would need to define a "default enchantment effect" the same way a face-down card is normally a 2/2 colorless creature. I would also worry that, if all of the starshape cards are super expensive creatures on the front side, you'd never flip them.

    Have you also considered the Meld technology for your astrals? That's something that has been used only once in the game (and at the time they didn't have the technology to have both cards in the same pack consistently, but now they do), there's a lot of variations you could do on that theme, and it definitely has the feeling of something bigger than life and otherwordly.

     
     
  • edited March 2021
    I have an idea, but the formatting will probably look bad. Let me make it first.

    The example wont be anything related to this set, its just going to give an example on how the mechanic would work.
  • edited March 2021
    Alright, so the cards will definitely need a do-over on formatting and looks.

    Basically, the idea is that if you have both cards in hand, you may play them merged together. Like modal dfcs. To make them much more different from modal dfcs, maybe each card could be a legendary creature or something? Also, I don't think Coalesce is the correct word I'm looking for. I would make it fuse, but that's already a mechanic.
  • In addition, some cards without this ability could give bonuses to cards with it. Like a spell that returns target permanent from your graveyard to the battlefield, and if there is a card in your graveyard that merges with the returned permanent, put them both onto the battlefield merged instead.
  • edited March 2021
    My only problem with this "meld" mechanic is that it doesn't give the same feeling of an eerie prescence, then the sudden appearance of a giant Astral.
  • edited March 2021
    I'm making an attempt to make the starshape-morph idea crazy:



    Basically, when you cast a card for its starshape cost, you pick an ability from up to two options based on the mana you spent to cast it (One option if you spent two of the same mana). Each option is an etb effect based on a 2 mana instant of that color. If you spent:
    • White: "When this enters the battlefield, create two 1/1 white Astral enchantment creature tokens. (Or two 1/1 white Soldier creature tokens if that's better)"
    Replicates Raise the Alarm
    • Blue: "When this enters the battlefield, look at the top three cards of your library, put one of those cards into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library."
    Replicates Anticipate
    • Black: "When this enters the battlefield, target creature gets -3/-3 until end of turn"
    Replicates Last Gasp
    • Red: "When this enters the battlefield, this deals 3 damage to any target."
    Replicates Lightning Strike
    • Green: "When this enters the battlefield, target creature gains +4/+4 until end of turn."
    Replicates Titanic Growth
    • Colorless: "When this enters the battlefield, (create a meteorite token?)" (I'm not sure what the colorless ability would do yet.)
    For example, if you cast a card for its starshape cost by paying one blue and one red mana, that enchantment enters the battlefield with your choice of the blue effect, or the red effect.

    Obviously, this wouldn't fit on a card, so instead, they would be on little rules cards in the back of the pack (If they still put those rule cards in packs).


    It could be possible that this mechanic has leaped from unbelievably weak to overwhelmingly strong, and it would be replicating the same types of effects across all rarities, so maybe this is a little overboard when it comes to power. Would mini versions of each effect be much more balanced? (Red dealing 1 damage, green giving +1/+1, etc.)

    Mini versions could be:
    White: "When this enters the battlefield, create a 1/1 white Soldier creature token."
    Blue: "When this enters the battlefield, scry 1."
    Black: "When this enters the battlefield, target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn."
    Red: "When this enters the battlefield, this deals 1 damage to any target."
    Green: "When this enters the battlefield, target creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn."

    Here's an uncommon card using this possible mechanic:


  • edited March 2021
    I'm starting to think that this mechanic is too complex for a normal set.
  • I like that Starshape is pushing is some really original direction. The thing I like particularly is the idea that the cards borrow an effect from somewhere else, I could see a variation where playing an Astral card adds an effect to a pool that any Astral card can choose from. 

    That being said, it is quite complex (which is not a deal breaker, you are allowed one very complicated mechanic in your set if it's super fun and it's core to its identity) and — more problematic — it feels super repetitive. Having half the cards in the set be the same effect doesn't sound fun. In addition, what's exciting about morphed creatures is that you don't know when it's going to flip and what it's going to be. With Astrals, I know it's most likely a very large creature I don't have to care about until we reach the late game, and it's probable that in most games they won't ever flip.
  • edited March 2021
    So I've been thinking about my other themes, and I'm thinking that maybe Astrals don't need to have the super fun mechanic because I have an idea for a sun and moon mechanic.

    What I'm thinking of for this sun and moon mechanic is similar to the contraptions in unstable, but without a special deck, and with two modes instead of three. When you play your first Sunrise/Nightfall card each game (Possible name for the mechanic), you begin your own day-night cycle (Each player will have their own cycle), that swaps at the beginning of your upkeep (You will start the cycle with day if the card you play has sunrise, and start with night if the card you play has Nightfall). Most Sunrise/Nightfall cards will have effects based on whether you are on day or night (Except for probably a few cards that would just mess with the cycle in general).

    The only troublesome part of this would be to format it, but I think it would be a fun effect.

    Because of this day-night mechanic, I'm thinking that maybe the astral mechanic could be something similar to evoke, but instead of sacrificing, you can just play it as a noncreature enchantment. (Basically just giving you the etb effect on a permanent, without it actually being a creature.)
  • edited March 2021
    How much would you be open to have smaller Astrals by the way? If you want them to be a central point in the set, you'll probably need to have a fair share of smaller ones so people can realistically cast them from time to time. That was one of MaRo's biggest regrets with the dragon theme in Dragons of Tarkir. It's also how they made Eldrazis work in Battle for Zendikar. 

    If they need to be super large, maybe you could consider having them as a single cycle of higher rarity cards; Something exciting to open that doesn't necessarily have a keyworded mechanic, just a looser mechanical theme, like Gods on Theros or Amonkhet.
  • edited March 2021
    Note: I changed starshape (For at least the time being) to an alternate cost that allows you to play the card as a noncreature enchantment, rather than a creature enchantment.

    I think that having smaller Astrals would be fine. Maybe the smaller Astrals mostly deal with enchantments (This could possibly be one of the ways constellation can be used in the set), and bigger Astrals mostly have the option to be played as noncreature enchantments (Some smaller Astrals could have starshape, and some bigger Astrals could have Constellation abilities, but the majority of smaller ones would have constellation, and the bigger ones would have starshape).

    Here's an example:


    I just realized that I should be aware of any possible flicker effects when it comes to these big Astrals. If you flicker a noncreature one, it would return as a creature, so I can't give a very small cost to a very big creature. (A turn three 10/10 or whatever doesn't sound fun).

    I made an idea card for starshape, but even this one feels like it's pushed in terms of stats and abilities for the alternate cost (When it comes to flicker effects):



    The wording on Starshape might need to change, but I like the direction that it's going in.
  • This version of Starshape could work, I would just make sure that the mechanic makes it clear which cards are creatures or not, maybe using a counter or something.

    This would also make your set an enchantment-matters set de facto, so I should pull the Theros alarm right now and mention this is giving me some strong Theros vibes with Astrals replacing Gods, especially if you're considering using Constellation. If you go in that direction, you should find a twist that neatly separate your set from Theros - or maybe consider making this a Theros set with a space theme.
  • edited March 2021
    I actually didn't consider how close this was getting to Theros. I think that maybe there could be a small enchantment theme, but maybe Astals don't need to be enchantments unless you cast them for their starshape cost (in which they would be noncreature enchantments). I did change the definition of what an Astral is a little, and now they can be made up of stars, moons, and other cosmic matter. Since it's mostly just stars that are tied to enchantments, I think that Astrals who don't seem to be made up of stars can have an overall use in the set, without needing to stick to just enchantments. I know that one of the ideas that I had (for an Astral) also had a sun and moon theme, so maybe Astrals can branch out into other categories. (There are a variety of Astrals, so it would kinda make sense that they aren't all trying to do similar stuff)

    I feel like maybe it would be a good idea to look for other possible mechanics, and see if Astrals could tie into them as well?

    You might have seen my idea for a "day-night cycle" mechanic that's inspired by contraptions in unstable (without some contraption deck). Instead of the three sprockets, it would be just two modes, day and night. It might be a bit confusing at first, but I think once I create a few cards, it might make a bit more sense, and can be polished from there.
  • I really like this mechanic, but we can't make enchantment creatures dominate the set. I think too many confusing mechanics would be hard to work with, as I saw with my set. (Which I am currently changing) 

    This 'space sci-fi astral cycle' theme seems very consistent in this set, and it seems really cool. You've set yoursellf a hard task with building a world, and I will now relate to Ravnica.

    Over the 15 years we've had with them, have they changed? Yes. For the better? Arguably. Change is natural, and the themes weren't too consistent. So, the standing out theme is cool, but, like I said, we can't let it dominate the set.
  • Like @TheDukeOfPork, I do think the space theme's pretty cool, but I actually think that those kinds of mechanics that @ningyounk suggested, especially the melding, would be really cool since we didn't really have that much otherwise.
  • Plus, the enchantment part kind of gives a "cosmic" feel to the whole set.
  • Yeah, I really think melding would be awesome in this set, WotC sort of gave up on it after Shadows Over Innistrad and Eldritch Moon. 

    Starshape definitely has potential, but at first it was too similar to morph. It seems pretty original, but something about it feels....improvable.
  • edited March 2021
    @TheDukeOfPork

    You're right. Just as ningyounk mentioned earlier, the creature enchantment part is making this seem too close to Theros, which is why I am going to take away constellation as a primary mechanic (I think there could be one or two psudeo-constellation cards, like how Theros Beyond Death did heroic with these, but it won't be a major mechanic). I like the idea of having a bit of an enchantment theme, which is why I want to keep starshape to some kind of extent (I think it might be just an alternate cost to play a creature as a noncreature enchantment instead, because I do have a crazy idea for a sun and moon mechanic, which you can see above).

    Since Astrals are diverse in their shapes, sizes, and are sometimes made up of different things (stars, moons, etc.), I think it would definitely make sense that they are not all doing the same thing (which was enchantment matters). As I said earlier, I think I'm going to look at some of my other primary themes, and determine if Astrals could tie into it, with varying levels of how involved they would be.

    The last thing, I think you might have skipped the part where I stated that this is a fantasy-themed space set (not sci-fi). Not really important, but I just want to make sure people aren't expecting some Star Wars spaceship battle in this set.
  • Plus, I found some art you might want to use.

    LION SPIRIT
    By ERA-7 on DeviantArt
    Cosmic Forest
    By JJcanvas  on DevianArt
    Cosmic harmony
    By Ellysium on DeviantArt


Sign In or Register to comment.