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Ozorion, the Harlem Music-Based Set - VISION DESIGN PHASE
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Yeah, you're definitely right about this. Rebound was just never going to get anywhere. I also like Harmonize, and I think this should make for an interesting balance of mechanics, since Songs won't appear until the uncommon and rare slots.
As for Enlightened: Do we think the two +1/+1 counters are enough, or do we want to improve on it in some way?
The whole transform mechanic can get overly complected, and it seems like we have enough as it is... Three new mechanics are plenty. This would be a way to lighten the load, and also make room for more sub themes later on.
Can you please re-iterate a few things for me?
- Which mechanics do you currently have on the drawing board for Ozorion? Harmonize, Enlightened, Rebound, and Tempo?
- For each mechanic, what's the current "agreed upon" wording and function of that mechanic?
I just feel like these keywords have been tweaked a bit since you started this thread, and I could use some clarity, so we can help you narrow it down to three new mechanics, if that's okay?Good idea! Here's an overview of each of the possible mechanics, and a brief note concerning each one:
Harmonize N - Target noncreature permanent becomes an N/N Song creature in addition to its other types until end of turn.
While this presents a lot of design space, Harmonize basically just gives a name to an unnamed theme in magic. While I'm sure we can include some artifact/land animation, it might be best not to give it the keyword name. This could be the one we take out, I'm open to thoughts on it.
Enlighten - {cost}, Exile this non enlightened creature: Return it to the battlefield enlightened with two +1/+1 counters on it. Enlighten only as a sorcery.
This mechanic was inspired by an old mechanic that @ningyounk had floating around in Rezatta for a while. They didn't end up using it, and I think it's great opening for story lines in terms of how the Ozorion inhabitants have to prove themselves. There is also more room for design space with effects like "As long as CARDNAME is enlightened, it has BLANK." Another option would be to have Enlighten N: Putting N +1/+1 counters on it instead of two. This might get a little complected, but I could be wrong...
Tempo - At the beginning of your upkeep, transform this.
This is probably the mechanic that I'm most apt to get rid of; It seems like we could run into problems with card design and display, and flip cards are not great for a small set like this one. If there are any objections let me know, otherwise this should be an easy mechanic to remove.
The old mechanic: Rebound:
When it comes to this mechanic, I'm pretty happy either way. There seems to be a fair amount of design space, however taking it out would make room for more themes going forward. If you guys want to keep it we can, but otherwise I'm happy to just scrap it. It didn't have too much to do with the set anyway.
Songs: @shadow123 created this mechanic, and I honestly really like it from my tests on MTG Cardsmith. We'll be sure to include some in the uncommon and rare slots.
All that said, lets narrow it down: I'm pretty torn about Tempo at the moment, what do y'all think? About Rebound, it seems interesting but doesn't really reflect the set. About Harmonize, it seems cool but probably doesn't need a keyword name.
Thank you! I'm partial to Tempo over Rebound, but I'm a "flavor guy" more than a "gameplay guy". Meaning, when I build a deck I'm perfectly happy letting people win against my "Goop deck" of oozes and slimes and fungi which are neat to look at, but might not be the most efficient at consistent victory. "Ooh! A dog deck?? Cuute! I need one of those!" as opposed to "This combo deck will win during Turn 2 60% of the time if I have _, _, and _ in my opening hand". Etc. Some people prefer to focus on the win, I like to sort through cards and use imagination and story-telling to build a themed deck. So, that is to say, I like the idea of Tempo because it seems cool to have something which is good/bad/good/bad or bad/good/bad/good depending on the turn. But I'm not the best at figuring out the balance of how to make that be efficient in gameplay for the guys who want to win
I'm certainly open to having one ridiculously powerful song at mythic, I like the idea!
@TerryTags ;
I also like Tempo more- Seems like a great mechanic for design space and creativity. I think we'll be doing this instead of Rebound like you said.
I'll post a larger update when I have time about the next stage of design, however we'd better stay on this thread for now so as not to annoy the moderators any more than we have too. (; In the mean time, I'm happy for card ideas and input!
(As this song enters and at the beginning of your upkeep, choose a mode that hasn’t been chosen. If you can’t, sacrifice CARDNAME.)
Sounds great, I like this version more also. Thanks!
@LordTachanka123 , sign me up for your mouse tribal newsletter, but also what about #BringBackAcornCounters lol jk
As for Enlighten, the idea is actually fine, but the flavor behind it (the people having to prove themselves) seems like Renown. In fact, they are pretty similar! Most cards with Renown either have "When this creature becomes renowned, ..." or "..., if this creature is renowned, ...". The main difference is to become renowned, the creature must get in for combat damage to a player, which might be not so flavorful.
For Tempo, I like the idea of a card switching between two states, though using transform might make it hard to design cards. A possible alternative (with more flexibility) might be to have something like this:
---
Flirtatious Wanderer
1R
Creature - Vampire Shaman
Rhythm 2 (At the beginning of your upkeep, put a rhythm counter on CARDNAME. Then if CARDNAME has 2 or more counters on it, remove 2 rhythm counters from it.)
At the beginning of combat on your turn, choose target black or red creature you control. If CARDNAME has a rhythm counter on it, that creature gets +2/+0 until end of turn. Otherwise, destroy that creature.
2/2
---
(The wording is similar to Sphinx Sovereign from Shards of Alara if anyone is interested.)
Though generalizing it might be too complex and tiresome for players.
@Ral1000 I used to make a lot of music cards in my early cardsmithing. Would it be okay if I post some of the mechanics I used on those cards here or do you think that we should just narrow down the mechanics from the ones we already have?
I really like all of your suggestions! Just a few thoughts-
- If we used these mechanics they would end up as Rhythm/Tempo N, Harmonize N, and Renown N. While I'm all for switching out for Renown, that's a lot of N's... I'm not sure if it's healthy to include all those mechanics that people could confuse with each other, but I could be wrong.
- About Tempo: I really love your version! Perhaps this could the one where we remove the "N's?" It seems kind of complected to have multiple phasing scenarios, so it would probably be best to just keep it with only two "sides":
Tempo (At the beginning of your upkeep, put a verse counter on this creature. Then, if it has two or more verse counters on it, remove all verse counters from it.)
@shadow123
Go ahead! There's not too much room at the moment, but I'd love to see what you have. We're looking for an Enlightenment- based non-Music mechanic as well, but if you have something to replace one of the "N's," I'd be happy to take a look!
- About Harmonize: I still think this doesn't need a keyword... This doesn't mean I wouldn't want to give it another shot, as it is still a mechanic, just not a named one as we've seen many times before in Nissa, Animating Faerie, Animate Artifact, ect.
I see what you mean about Harmonize. I've been convinced!
Do we like the idea of taking out Rebound and making Tempo worded:
Tempo (At the beginning of your upkeep, put a verse counter on this creature. Then, if it has two or more verse counters on it, remove all verse counters from it.)
Just to make sure I understand that wording for Tempo:
- if you want a permanent to be better on turns 1,3,5 you could say something like "If this card has no verse counters on it, [beneficial effect happens]".
- if you want a permanent to be better on turns 2,4,6 you could say something like "If this card has one verse counter on it, [beneficial effect happens]"
Or did I get those backwards...I believe that's correct! (;
Now you see why we might not want to have Tempo N...
Tempo (At the beginning of your upkeep, put a verse counter on this creature. Then, if it has two or more verse counters on it, remove all verse counters from it.)
Harmonize N (Target noncreature permanent becomes an N/N Song creature in addition to its other types until end of turn.)
Renown (Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, if it isn't renowned, put a +1/+1 counter on it and it becomes renowned.)
I like Harmonize and Tempo. I think these are set in stone. We might be able to fit one more mechanic, but it's not required. @shadow123 did you want to show us what you have?
Renown isn't set in stone, so do you guys like it? I'm sure it presents great design space and world history points, but it's important that y'all think so too.
One of them features a mechanic made by @KrampisZman
Rehearse (At the beginning of your upkeep, put a verse counter on this creature.)
the other is musical permanents:
(Songs and musicians are musical)
The second one is a little narrow though, but here they are! Sorry that they’re late!
Examples:
(Edit: I just realized the Rhythm of the Alley card's last line should say ..."unblockable until end of turn", and the Rhythm of the Street's last line should say "...during this turn" instead of "on this turn". I'm old and it's after my bedtime, sorry! hahaha)
- About Rehearse: It seems a bit too much like Tempo, and giving two slightly different verse counter abilities different keywords seems like it would cause some confusion.
- About Musical permanents: I really like this! Since we should definitely include musicians in the set, this seems like a perfect way to emphasize their connection with songs. It would also open up opportunities for musician-tribal themes. This is a perfect subtle mechanic that will fix us in!
@TerryTags
- I don't see why not! We can count on all permanents for now, but change it back to creatures if it gets too complicated. I like these examples, and I'd like to try out a cycle at the uncommon phase if possible.
The duel-colored archetypes:
Every recent set in magic has been based around archetypes- Ours is no different. It's time to define the 10 two-colored themes to start building around.Here's an idea for the layout:
W/U: Faerie tribal
U/R: Second spell each turn
G/U: Counters/Proliferate
U/B: Siren Tribal
B/R: Vampire tribal
B/G: Self Mill/Graveyard Recursion
W/B: Musical permanent support
G/W: Harmonize keyword power
R/W: Having 3 or more creatures
R/G: Aggro
If I'm skipping a step in this process, please let me know! I'm not a great set builder myself, so I'm probably missing something important...
Very useful diagram! Thanks!
Where things stand
So, at this point in the process, things are going to start slowing down. I'm currently working on a few other projects, so I don't think Set Design is going to be an immediate thing to jump into.While I'm excited to get things going, I also want to wait until things have cooled down with Rezatta; It's attracting nearly all the Set-making action on the forums at the moment. I just want to say that I deeply respect all of the work ningyouk has devoted to Rezatta over the past few years. As such, I'm not annoyed or anything, I just think this is a good time to slow down and pick up again later.
Until then, if anyone has any suggestions or concept/card ideas, I'd be happy to see them! I really appreciate all the work that has gone into this over the past month, and I'm excited to see it flourish in the future. As for the future- Who knows what it will look like? With everything going on in the world, I can't say for certain when we'll pick back up.
In any case, that's that. We'll play this by ear.
Peace.
Generally, I'd say evoke is a better mechanic, but I think this is some fun flavor. Of course, since Song is a creature type y'all plan to incorporate by the looks, you'd probably want to have it become a Song instead of a Spirit, of course.
Anyway, these are all the designs I've drafted. My set is going to be aimed at feeling surreal and ethereal, for reference.