The Great Empire. Custom Card Set. Help Needed

Comments

• strongbelieves

  March 2016

  Merciless works but is very limited in terms of use. Your opponent would have to be blocking with multiple creatures just for you to potentially trigger it. In the event of two creatures blocking one, it would just be trample. It's also the kind of setup you can see coming and prepare for, so an opponent would just not with extra creatures or only block with multiple blockers when they know the other blockers can take the chip damage.
  
  So basically, it is an ineffective and hard to use lesser version of trample.
• Rednaxela

  March 2016

  @strongbelieves thanks, I'm thinking of changing it to a sliver-like ability. Something like "other attacking creatures you control get___."
• strongbelieves

  March 2016

  Something about mob mentality might work, since they're a horde. Maybe they get a buff or an ability when team blocking?
• ningyounk

  March 2016 edited March 2016

  I like the asymetric distribution of colours between the factions, but it seems that red and green only appear in two factions while all the other colours each appear in three ^^
  This means Red and Green factions will proportionally have more cards than factions without these colours to compensate?
  
  Here's my thought on your themes:
  - Tax: seems like a good spot to be for a mechanic, i think this one is promising. BUT you cannot change the effect if it's an actual keyword ability, and not just an ability word.
  - Merciless: it feels too parasitic (works only in limited, just like allies, except allies got a TON of support in every colour to compensate for the parasitic aspect)
  - Propagate: the name propagate sounds a bit too much like populate, but otherwise i love the idea, it should be great a priori
  - Coup: interesting as well but i have the feeling this one has much less design space, especially if you can only put it on small creatures. Same thing that for Tax, you misused keyword abilities though.
  - Mining: this one is rough, i don't see a common that would recquire you to sacrifice a land, it would be extremely tricky for new players to ponder these kind of abilities, and you can only make huge effects (obviously you're not gonna mine to deal even 3 damage) so i see very little design space and i can't think of a single card that would be suited for common with Mining
  
  In general, i think you used a bit too much enter-the-battlefield abilities (already 3/5). There are larger design space, try something that cares about something in a larger way? Like simply caring about artifacts or colorlessness for the Catacombs for instance ^^
  
  Also you used exclusively ability words (they're thematic, like Redoutable, Landfall or Raid, but do a different thing on each card) but you should use some keyword abilities as well (like Bolster, or Delve, or Populate, that always do the same thing and can be used without reminder text) so your set feels more eclectic ^^
  
  Concerning complexity, i think you're in a very good spot, maybe with enough room to add a transversal mechanic like allies or morph (ok maybe not as complex as morph xD) ^^
  
  EDIT: Ok i saw your cards and that you already considered some of what i just said, i'm going to look at them and comment directly on the cards when i got time then ^^
• Rednaxela

  March 2016

  @ningyounk thanks a lot that was very helpful. I do want to add some keywords but I have been having trouble thinking of any. I might add that to my contest to get some ideas.
• ningyounk

  March 2016

  @Rednaxela
  Just so you know, i finished commenting on your cards from the 6 factions ^^
  
  Did you make a set skeleton or something by the way? I feel your factions are a little isolated from one another, other that the natural connections between some of them (obviously the Rim is going to help Certa and the Horde because you want tokens to tap or to attack).
  
  Otherwise, i really like your factions ^^ As i said on your card, my main concerns are:
  - Decompose is too strong because it's infinite, and causes too much memory issues
  - Mining is not compatible with common, you already have a strong theme with equipments, you should stick to it
  - The Rim sounds absolutely awesome, i'm guessing this is your "native" faction
  - The Resistance is also very well designed, i have concern about the balance of the game if too much creatures are unblockable though
  - The Horde does too much things at a time, you really need to know what they do and what they don't, most of the cards are completely overpowered
  - Certa has great potential but i didn't see it exploited yet
  
  Obviously this is only my personal opinion, so take what you want from it I would love to see a Design Skeleton though ^^
• ningyounk

  March 2016

  Oh and, on names, Catacombs sounds black (Catacombs are graves) and Resistance sounds like the good guys, not an assassin faction x)
• Rednaxela

  March 2016

  @ningyounk thanks, I read all of your comments and now I'll start remaking things and working on mechanics when I have time.
• ningyounk

  March 2016 edited March 2016

  By the way, now that i have worked and thought a bit more thoroughly about the Certa faction in particular in order to design my entries, i'd like to add some thoughts:
  
  - The lack of flying creatures is going to be a problem at some point. With Certa (WU) being both the colour combination usually tied to flying attackers AND a nearly all-human faction, you'll need a way to make them fly at some point. Especially since no other faction take that role.
  
  - The Rim, Certa, and the Horde have a natural synergy (they all need a lot of creatures, and attacking make things tap). I still don't know how to mecanically tie them to Deepwoods, the Resistance, and the Catacombs though.
  
  I tried to create artifact tokens for Certa, that would let the Catacombs care not only about equipments but also artefacts - or even colorless - in general. I call them "crappy thopters" - please don't ever use that name -xD They work like this :
  
  Crappy Thopter
  Artifact-Creature
  1/1
  Flying. This creature doesn't untap during its controller's untap step.
  {1}: Untap this creature.
  
  The goal is to make flyers, while helping certa keep blockers even after paying the tax, helping the Horde attacking while keeping blockers, and making tokens for the rim. My biggest problem is that it's probably too complex for a token. But the ability is still interesting for the Certa faction, so i'll leave that here ^^
• stormbreath

  March 2016

  this is not the most complex of a token I have seen, and it looks very useful. maybe name of "Malfunctioning Thopter"?
• Corwinnn

  March 2016

  Janky Thopter
• ningyounk

  March 2016

  I honestly think the term "thopter" is too much linked to Blue/Red in the mind of players now
• Corwinnn

  March 2016

  Janky Machination
• Rednaxela

  March 2016

  For the deepwoods, I have come up with a mechanic called decay:
  Decay N-[cost] (You may cast this card for its decay cost, if you do, put N rot counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep remove one rot counter, if you can't sacrifice this creature.)
  Its supposed to be like suspend but in reverse. It helps to get creatures out cheaper and at the same time, fill up your graveyard.
  Any feedback would be appreciated.
• strongbelieves

  March 2016

  @rednaxela So you can pay less to play an expensive creature cheaper and give it vanishing.
• Rednaxela

  March 2016

  @strongbelieves pretty much
• ningyounk

  March 2016 edited March 2016

  @strongbelieves has a good point, it's already been done with Vanishing http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Vanishing, the only difference is that Rot is an alternate cost.
  
  You already have 3 mechanics set for your factions : Tax, Propagate, and Coup. What you first need to do now is checking what are your restrictions for the remaining three slots.
  
  For instance, you may want a keyword ability that is not as flexible as the first three (something like prowess, or delve, or outlast, or investigate more recently, etc...) but still have enough design space to find cool combinations around it.
  
  You do need a graveyard mechanic for Deepwoods I think. But remember that it must synergize with the other factions. Vanishing doesn't do much to synergize with anything here.
  
  A few things that pop to mind that your set would currently lack are: flying, focus on something else than creatures, colour-fixing, etc...
• strongbelieves

  March 2016 edited March 2016

  @ningyounk @Rednaxela
  I wouldn't say my point was that 'it has already been done'. Lots of mechanics are made from other mechanics that already exist but sort of twisted around. So kicker or overload or strive are additional costs you can pay to make a card more effective but Decay is more like Surge in that you get to pay less for a desired card on a special condition, that you know you're going to lose it in a set amount of time.
  
  Honestly, I'd call it something like "Transitory N - {cost}" and have the reminder text be: "You may cast this card for it's Transitory cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with Vanishing N."
  
  That would let it use an existing and known set of rules as well as not make you have to define lots of new rules for an effect that already exists.
• ningyounk

  March 2016

  @Rednaxela @strongebelieves
  
  "Transitory N - {cost}" and have the reminder text be: "You may cast this card for it's Transitory cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with Vanishing N." has a lot of problems:
  
  - First, it doesn't make Vanishing a funnier ability, and i don't think you're starting with a good base if you say "this faction mechanic is self-destructing creatures, do you want to play that?"
  
  - the name "Transitory" is far from being as flavorful ar "Rot", it's even more generic than Vanishing which is really not a good selling point
  
  - A keyword that simply gives you another keyword is REAAAAALLY weird, the first thing everyone would think is "ok so why not just making fading then". Also, you can't assume anyone knows what Vanishing is. This is not evergreen, so you would have to write down the reminder text of Vanishing after the reminder text of Transitory, which doesn't exactly save you space ^^"
  
  My advice on this one would be: find a keyword that synergizes with your other factions AND that's an upside ability. Tax is already part downside, as well as Coup (you need tio play weaker creatures to make it work), that's far enough downsides mechanic ^^
• strongbelieves

  March 2016 edited March 2016

  @ningyounk My post was an example of how it would work mechanically, it isn't supposed to be flavorful. The point of the ability is that most of the cards that have it would probably be more expensive versions of existing cards that have a less expensive cost that provides them with vanishing. For example:
  
  Turbo Wall of Omens - U
  {2}{w}
  0/4
  Transitory 3 - {w}, Defender
  When Turbo Wall of Omens enters the battlefield, draw a card.
  
  So you can pay more to get the same value as Wall of Omens or pay less and get the same value but only keep the creature for 3 turns which in this case would make it more like a cantrip.
• ningyounk

  March 2016 edited March 2016

  @strongbelieves: Yes I do understand the concept ^^ I was arguing that "Transitory" definitely isn't flavorful enough to be an actual name and isn't different enough from Vanishing to necessitate the creation of another keyword. While the latter can also be said on "Rot", at least "Rot" is flavorful which can make it doable if the set really needs it (but the set probably doesn't need another downside ability that doesn't interact with the other factions).
  
  I'm going to make up a simple example of all-upsides mechanic and how it can interact with other factions:
  
  Thrill [Cost] (T,[Cost]: Return target creature from target graveyard to the battlefield under its owner's control. Then its owner sacrifices it.)
  
  - Simple, keyword ability, always does the same thing but allows you to build around it in different ways
  - Fits the colour's part of the colour's pie and the flavour of the faction
  - Tap a permanent = help Certa
  - I'm sure green and black has plenty of tokens, the Rim is fine with Deepwoods whatever its mechanic is
  - Return a big creature from the opponent's graveyard to enable Coup
  - The Horde shares black with Deepwoods, just put some "when this dies" ability on those permanents and you're good to go
  - The Catacombs, well I don't know what it does so... i'm guessing a lot of "enter-the-battlefield" effects will do the trick for the synergy
  
  This is just an example to pinpoint what questions one should be asking to him/herself while designing a mechanic for a set. Obviously "Thrill" has many flaws, but what's important is that I tried to match the global set's need by wondering what's missing in it. And I fail to see how Vanish/Rot/Transitory does any good for the set as a whole.
• strongbelieves

  March 2016

  @ningyounk
  
  The point of keywords is to eliminate repetitive use of longer text to describe abilities. You could give every card you wanted "You may pay {XYZ} instead of the mana cost for this permanent. If you do, it gains Vanishing N" but if you're making a set where a bunch of creatures have it, keywording it isn't a bad idea. Scry replaced regular "You may look at the top N cards of your library. You may put any number of them on top of your library and the rest on the bottom of your library." and hexproof replaced "This permanent can't be the target of spells and abilities opponents control." which showed up for a while on cards like Uril Miststalker before it got keyworded.
  
  As for not being different enough from vanishing, you probably don't watch ChannelFireball or read sites like MTGGoldfish. It's pretty widely commented that "Wizards keeps coming up with different ways to say 'kicker'" meaning alternative cost mechanics are very prominent, very common and not too different. Look at sweep, entwine, splice, replicate, phyrexian mana, overload, strive, bestow and kicker, just to name a few. All of those all you to pay an 'increased' cost (in quotes because it is usually proportional to the effect) to get a greater effect.
  
  Then there's effects like this which let you pay less, instead of more, if conditions are met. Surge, prowl, ninjitsu, etc. The effect he is talking about is pretty much a mix of Vanishing and Evoke. Whether or not that is 'different enough' is your opinion. Nearly all of the keywords I just listed wouldn't qualify as 'different enough' from kicker by those standards.
  
  And as for the flavor, like I said, the keyword I used was just a placeholder. If you want it to be flavorful, call it something else. I could have called it "Hamburger N" for all it matters.
• ningyounk

  March 2016

  Ok ok ^^ We're drifting quite off topic here x)
  
  Long story short, what Rednaxela needs to take out of all this: "Rot" is probably not helping your set, you should keep looking for an ability that actually fills holes in your set
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Now on the digression with @strongbelieve. To make a short answer : clearly the fact that you felt the need to make an exhaustive lesson on keywords means you took my previous comment as an attack on your Magic knowledge so let me apologize
  Nevertheless, it also showed that you were confusing a few things about keywords - regardless of wether making Keyword A : Keyword B was a good idea:
  
  - Evergreen keywords and their non-evergreen counterparts have not the same function. Evergeen keywords are here to shorten very common effects and let the designers use them more often, as you said citing Scry and Hexproof. Non-evergreen keywords like Vanish are here for the flavour - to enhance the "time" theme of Time Spiral for instance. You can only use them without reminder text on rare and mythic rare cards with a lot of text, and even then you should try to avoid doing so.
  
  - You seem to consider Kicker as a model mechanic. Kicker is no longer used by Wizards of the Coast because it's basically keywording every additional cost, eating way too much design space while being very unflavourful. Kicker is a very specific topic, that doesn't make Rot more ok to be that close mechanically to Vanish.
  
  - You clearly confuse additional costs and alternative costs, as you mentionned Phyrexian Mana and Bestow as example of "Kicker-like" mechanics, or mentioned "effects like this which let you pay less, instead of more", etc.
• Rednaxela

  March 2016

  @ningyounk coming up with keywords is harder than I thought it would be. I'll keep thinking.
• ningyounk

  March 2016

  @Rednaxela It is very fun though! Make a list of what you need in your set for this faction, and try to design a lot of different mechanics until you find the right one ^^
• TheFriendlyGeek

  May 2016

  I really like Certa. I think you should eventually make intro decks for each clan and post them here
• stormbreath

  May 2016

  Notes on Merciless: seems like a better Battle Cry. maybe limit the spread, because, you can't spread Mercilessness to all of the army, while everyone can hear a Battle Cry.