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Renaissance Italy Themed Set Design
Hey everyone! This discussion is for the purpose of the discussion of a set idea based on Renaissance Italy. While the mechanics included here are mostly painting based, any ideas embracing the full Renaissance concept are highly encouraged so that the set can branch out to fill its design space. The original set idea was a collaboration between the members of Team B for round 3 of the Pro-Team contest (Myself, @Mobin, @Faiths_Guide, @Mordecai, @Feyamius). I captained this team, but because of schedules the brainstorming process we went through never reached the level I was hoping for.
Artist Credit: iidanmrak
Current Mechanics:
Painter - EVERGREEN KEYWORD (Tap this creature: Create a colorless legendary Painting artifact token with "Creatures you control have EVERGREEN KEYWORD".)
Comission N (This permanent enters the battlefield with N Coin counters on it. Remove a Coin counter from it: Add C to your mana pool.)
Sculpt N (This creature enters the battlefield with N Chisel counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep remove one Chisel counter from it.)
Poetry - Whenever you draw one or more cards in any phase except your draw step, [effect].
Artist Credit: iidanmrakCurrent Mechanics:
Painter - EVERGREEN KEYWORD (Tap this creature: Create a colorless legendary Painting artifact token with "Creatures you control have EVERGREEN KEYWORD".)
Comission N (This permanent enters the battlefield with N Coin counters on it. Remove a Coin counter from it: Add C to your mana pool.)
Sculpt N (This creature enters the battlefield with N Chisel counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep remove one Chisel counter from it.)
Poetry - Whenever you draw one or more cards in any phase except your draw step, [effect].
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
- The four mechanics are all about the same thing (a.k.a. Art).
- Two mechanics make creatures enter the battlefield with a different type of counters which creates a huge memory issue for the set.
- Painter is too strong, cards that grant keywords to your whole board like Serra's Blessing have a higher cost than just tapping a creature, and none of them is common. Also this would probably require to put reminder text for the evergreen keywords at common which makes it quite lengthy).
- Mana produced by Commission will empty from the mana pool at the end of upkeep, so you can only play instant spells with this mana, is that really the intention of the mechanic? Is this hinting at an "Instant-speed-matters" theme of the set?
- You definitely need a mechanic that goes on nonpermanent spells for diversity.
- Considering Sculpt doesn't have a fixed effect per se, the set probably really needs a simple keyword that just does the same thing everytime. Otherwise you will very likely run into a complexity issue.
- There is poor synergy between the mechanics for the moment.
- No mechanic with an activation cost? A set needs a series of important things like card flow, boardstall-breakers and mana sinks. You don't *have* to design mechanics for these purpose, but I'm worried none of the four mechanics even touch one of these important subjects.
These are just some thoughts of course, you do what you want with your set, but I saw you making a set contest and it reminded me of the Zocarus design so I couldn't resist dropping by x)
RG ART— Renaissance is obviously defined as an revolution by art. Sculpture, painting, architecture,... so many fields Renaissance revisited in a fresh and optimistic way after "the Dark Age". Red and Green are both strongly tied to nature and emotion, showing how art starts as an intuition before becoming a full-formed thought.
UR SCIENCE — Renaissance is also the renewal of scientific interest, we all know the sketches of Da Vinci of a flying machine or just the vitruvian man showing interest in anatomy. Blue/Red is a very inventive colour combination often tied to inventions.
GW HUMANISM — Renaissance believes in humans and what they can achieve. Renaissance is about human talent, human mind, and human beauty. Green and White are both colours used to caring about humans as a tribe, showing how they get stronger once they're together.
UB RENOWN — Renaissance has its fair share of renown men and women, and their names still resonate in today's cultures (the ninja turtles are all named after famous Renaissance artists for instance.) Blue and Black are both egotistic colour that believe in the power of singularity.
WB RELIGION — Renaissance starts in Italy, and the influence of the Vatican gives to art and even science a very christian flavour. White and Black are the colours of Angels and Demons, but also of religious devotion.
As this asymmetric distribution of colours can be perceived as unsettling, there is also the option of making wedge or shard philosophies by adding a colour to each combination. I give an example wih wedge as I think enemy colours always give a nice twist to a philosophy:
RG+U — ART
UR+W — SCIENCE
GW+B — HUMANISM
UB+G — RENOWN
WB+R — RELIGION
Italian for Rebirth
I agree with @ningyounk. All of the mechanics, while interesting, are art-themed. Though art was a major theme of the Renaissance, there were several other defining concepts that easily could give birth to new mechanics. Here are a few:
- Humanism/Philosophy. Mentioned by @ningyounk above, but this was one of the most important factors in the Renaissance. Ancient Greek philosophy was rediscovered, notably the works of Protagoras.
- Exploration. This was a big one. During the Renaissance, new lands were constantly being discovered, and new trade ties established. Marco Polo's travels are probably the most notable of this section. Even though the book he wrote about ancient China/Mongolia was mostly fiction. (I mean, seriously! He wrote about unicorns and giant birds that would pick up houses and drop them from the sky!).
- Science. Again mentioned already by @ningyounk, but another of the important Renaissance concepts. Da Vinci, obviously, is probably the most well-known person in this sense.
- Technology. Again with Da Vinci. The guy personified "Renaissance Man." Technology and engineering advanced vastly during this period of time.
- Warfare. With the advances of technology and discovery of new lands ripe for the taking (darn ancient Europeans had to go and conquer the world XD), the tactics and instruments of war took a staggering jump forward. Here is yet another place to mention Da Vinci. Though he never wanted to create weapons, he nevertheless ended up inventing many such devices, and was, if unwillingly, a pioneer of weapons technology. He invented, among other things, the precursor to the modern tank.
Hope this helps, guys! I love all of the mechanic ideas, though a couple are a bit too strong or need some rewording.
That said, I really liked the input of @MagicChess, while I would put Technology, Science and Warfare in roughly the same basket, Exploration is indeed super important to depict Renaissance I think ^^
Also, I just had a crazy idea that could work for the set. You know that every set must have a flashy mechanic that helps differenciate it visually from other sets? (E.g.: Aftermath, Vehicles, Double-faced cards, Devoid, Morph, etc.) If you put the emphasis on Art, then how abot a set that must be played with a pen, like Conspiracy? I have two main ideas right now for mechanics that would use a pen:
1) A mechanic with a blank token that's actually a list where you put card names on it during the game. It could work really well with the Renown/Religion themes for instance. Let's say the Renown theme wants you to write a lot of different names on the token because the more geniuses and talent you get during the game the more powerful your version of Renaissance is, while the Religion theme wants you to write several time the same name like you're worshipping it to make it stronger every time.
E.g. with a List token called History so you have cards that tell you to "Write a card name in History":
- Creatures spells you control with their name written in History costs {1} less to cast.
- Whenever a creature card enters the battlefield under your control, it deals 1 damage to each creature you don't control for each time its name is written in History.
2) A mechanic where you have to fill in a blank creature token. You get to put the power, toughness and abilities yourself, like a real artist. Maybe the rules to fill the token could be written directly on the token so you don't have a lengthy reminder text (it would just say something like "Create a Masterpiece token", just like the Monarch cards don't actually tell you what a Monarch is, they just say "You become the Monarch."
__________
1) FIRST IDEA — LIST TOKEN
Da Vinci, Renaissance Genius
1UR
Legendary Creature - Human
2/3
When Da Vinci, Renaissance Genius enters the battlefield, add a card name to your List.
T: Put an artifact card with its name on your List from your hand onto the battlefield.
De Medicis, Renaisance Comissioneer
WU
Legendary Creature - Human
2/2
Cards with their name on your List cost {U/W} less to cast.
{U/W}{U/W}: Add a card name to your list.
Fervent Worshipper
WB
Creature - Human Cleric
1/3
When Fervent Worshipper enters the battlefield, add a card name to your List.
Whenever another creature enters the battlefield under your control, for each time its name is written on your List each opponent loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.
__________
2) SECOND IDEA — DRAW YOUR OWN TOKEN
Obviously this one is a little more difficult to flesh out, and a little more complex. There needs to be some rules so the tokens you create are balanced. Here's one example working with a mechanic that doesn't explain everything on the card itself like Monarch or Planeswalkers. It would just say "Create a Level-N Masterpiece". Then you just have to fill this token:
Masterpiece
Token Creature - Masterpiece
*/*
(Create your own token by distributing your Masterpiece level points among the following options.)
1 point: +1 power or toughness
2 points: Vigilance, Reach or Menace
3 points: First Strike, Flying, or hexproof
4 points: Double Strike, lifelink or deathtouch
Of course it's very rough, there are a million ways of executing the Fill-your-own token idea, and many probably better than this one that is a little too complex probably.
Create a masterpiece (Create a X+1/X+1 Masterpiece Artifact creature token with a name of your choice, where X is the number of names on your list, and add that token's name to your list.)
Still a little complicated, but the flavor is supposed to be that the more the artist does, the more skilled they become.
The second idea, I'm not so sure about. It's very complicated, and a totally revolutionary crazy new thing; I don't think two of those in one set would be a good thing. However, I think that with some tweaking you could make it work. I would get rid of Masterpiece Points and make the mechanic much simpler. Here's my first draft:
(mechanic name) -- [evergreen ability] ({x}: create a X/X [ability's color(s)] Sculpture/Masterpiece/whatever the heck you're calling it create token with [evergreen ability].
For example: blahblah -- haste ({x}: create an X/X red _____ creature token with haste.)
Or something like that.
Alternatively, I think you could ditch the creature part entirely and make a Masterpiece some kind of artifact that does something special. Maybe...
(mechanic name) -- +1/+1 ({t}: If [this creature] has no (something) counters on it, create a colorless Masterpiece artifact token with, "Creatures you control get +1/+1. Put a (something) counter on [this creature].)
One could replace the +1/+1 with anything: flying, protection from red, whatever.
I definitely really like the themed wedge idea of @ningyounk and think the mechanics criticisms are accurate, so what I am going to do is change this discussion to a Custom Sets category discussion to talk about the overall design of the set.
Additionally, if anyone has any interest in working on this set with me (@ningyounk and those originally on the proteam contest team with me), feel free to send me a message. Apologies for this premature contest idea.
With regard to revising the mechanics, I have made some edits that may make them a bit more balanced. However, I definitely am aware that they are not perfect so any further comments on them would be greatly encouraged.
Painter - EVERGREEN KEYWORD (Tap this creature: Create a colorless legendary Painting artifact token with "Creatures you control have EVERGREEN KEYWORD".)
Commission N (This creature enters the battlefield with N coin counters on it. At the beginning of each phase of your turn, you may remove any number of coin counters from this creature. Add {1} to your mana pool for each counter removed this way.)
Finally, please feel free to propose ideas of your own mechanics to fit into this overall theme. I will also be adopting the name proposed by @obsidianhoax for the set.
Is it possible that we could participate in this set? We like the theme and would like to work with some of the mechanics you're using.
This would be great practice for a future set of ours.
What are your plans for the multiplayer support of the set, if they're of concern?
https://mtgcardsmith.com/view/ornithopter (Couldn't resist)
https://mtgcardsmith.com/view/render-the-form
https://mtgcardsmith.com/view/colossal-crossbow
https://mtgcardsmith.com/view/armored-fighting-vehicle-1 (Looking back at it I don't like this card or colossal crossbow which is a GREAT sign!)
https://mtgcardsmith.com/view/exploit-joints
https://mtgcardsmith.com/view/affare-port-broker
https://mtgcardsmith.com/view/affare-port-informant (Affare means deal in italian)
https://mtgcardsmith.com/view/deprive-of-vigor
Otherwise a few comments on various things:
1) ON THE PEN & PAPER MECHANIC:
The Fill-a-Token thing is the real concept behind the two mechanics I proposed, both concept mechanics have issues (respectively having to know the cards in your deck by heart and balancing the custom-token). The idea is just to find a mechanic that lets you write stuff on your tokens.
Here are other things you could do with a pen:
- A token that mixes abilities of different cards (you write CARDNAMEA+CARDNAMEB on the token).
- You can add sorcery or instant tokens to you hand.
- You can have cards with slash options that you need to cross the first time you play them. For instance, a creature with "Artistic — Vigilance/Lifelink/First Strike (Cross one before playing this card.)"
- Ability counters. For instance "Add an ability counter with Flying on target creature." And you just put pieces of paper with the ability written on them on your cards, like a counter.
2) ON PAINTER AND COMMISSION:
Painter still has a number of issues, and is unbalanced right now:
- Pumping all your creatures is too strong to make common cards with it.
- The token feels like an unecessary loop.
- The design space of the mechanic is incredibly limited.
- Evergreen keywords except Prowess don't stack which means once you activated the ability it's no use for the rest of the game.
- Tapping the creature is not a balanced cost, you need to ask for mana.
Though I think @Lujikul is on to something interesting, you play with ONE painting at all time and you must change it accordingly to the situation. That could lead to quite interesting choices and would justify both the use of a token, and make you want to re-use the ability multiple times. Again, the effect sound much more like an enchantment than an artifact though.
Additionally, it raises a lot of creative questions:
- Is this an artifact set? If so, how do you differenciate it from Kaladesh which has a very similar premise (a.k.a. "Be an inventor" vs. "Be an artist")? Maybe you should consider Art as Enchantment and do an actual Enchantment-matters set?
- Why Painter and not Sculptor, Dancer, Poet, Musician, Writer,...? Do you make a mecanical difference between each kind of artist?
- What is the space alloted to Science vs. Art in the set? Is this an Art set and we put Science under the rug to help differenciate it from artifact sets? Do Science and Art coexist in the set with different mechanical identities? Do Science and Art are combined, they just have a different flavour but share the same "Creativity" mechanical identity?
On Commission, I'm worried about the depths of the mechanic, it seems very limited. Nevertheless, here's a try at a simpler reminder text. Comission N (This creature enters the battlefield with N Coin counters on it. Remove a Coin counter from it: Add C to your mana pool.)
3) ON THE SET'S NAME:
While I think the set definitely needs an italian-like name, I strongly advise against using a REAL italian word, especially something as obvious as Rinascita. When Wizards name their set, they always rebrand everything. The Theros name itself obviously come the ancient greek "Theos" (Θεός) which means God. My point is they changed it, and you should do the same.
Chiavella
Davilsci
Mavelisa
Monavilia
Raviglia
@ningyounk @Lujikul I had tried to make it so that only one painting could exist at once by making the artifact tokens legendary. When the mechanic was originally designed, the presence of one at a time was what was envisioned, but obviously not what came through in the actual mechanic. I like the idea of making it so that you can only have one of these tokens at once, but I also see the large flaws that the mechanic has in terms of flavor and design space. In terms of making the "paintings" enchantments, I think that keeping them as artifacts makes the most sense flavor-wise. However, I agree that we need to incorporate something that is strictly different than Kaladesh.
With regards to the name, I will just keep the set nameless for now, but @ningyounk @obsidianhoax just know that I like the name ideas you have come up with so far.
Finally, I agree with the simpler rewording of Commission, but I think the mechanic can be built around in a number of ways. First of all the wording can be changed to:
Comission N (This permanent enters the battlefield with N Coin counters on it. Remove a Coin counter from it: Add C to your mana pool.)
With that small change in the wording, the mechanic can expanded beyond creatures onto other permanents. Even though this could cause some flavor problems, I can also think of using it on nonbasic lands that are representative of certain clans or rich families. Additionally, the act of removing/placing coin counters can lead to a bunch of different interesting interactions.
YAY! I didn't completely screw up!
I'll make some more to see if i can flush it out.
For the painting mechanic, I think that to keep you from spamming Paintings, (a) the tokens should be legendary and be named [card name]'s Masterpiece, or (b) the tokens should be legendary and be named the evergreen ability that they give to your creatures. The first option makes it so that a single creature can't make multiple Paintings. The second one makes it so that only one painting of a certain type can exist at once, as opposed to making it so that only one painting can be under your control at a time.
@HenryTheHatter if you have any further ideas towards using the mechanics for "Affare Port" creatures of some kind, I would urge you to make them and share them here for more feedback.
I thought they were crazy as well. XD
https://mtgcardsmith.com/view/affare-port
https://mtgcardsmith.com/view/affare-port-cutpurse
I think Affare port's mechanic is getting coin and then spending it to assure your opponents demise.I'll try and make more tomorrow (Also have two sick legendary s coming)
I have a MAJOR issue with the Italian Renaissance theme though for the moment: it's incredibly dificult to find art for it. I mean, digital art that fits this period. It was incredibly difficult to find a single art in MTG-like style that reminded me of Renaissance. Any idea of keywords to search for on Deviantart besides Renaissance, Italy, and Assassin"s Creed since those don't give you anything good? Because if not, it will be almost impossible to produce even enough cards for the contest.
But please don't take that idea unless you let us join the set. XD
Renaissance artwork tends to be in the form of old MTG artwork and not available through DeviantArt by the way. As I was trying this theme quite a while ago as well.