Renaissance Set — Design Phase

18911131428

Comments

  • @ningyounk, do you think it could cost three and just do the card draw? since 3 mana draw 2 lose 2 is a fair card but not especially playable and you trade needing an activator for being able to potentially activate it multiple times.
  • edited August 2017
    @atrus159 The fact that it is repeatable makes it very potent, "draw two cards" is a very powerful effect, especially on a permanent because you don't give up a card to have the effect. If think it could be fine in monoblack while drawing only one card, but you would need a rider that gives you life for the card to really make sense.

    E.g:

    CARDNAME
    1BB
    At the beginning of your end step, if you gained life this turn, you draw a card and you lose 1 life.
    1B, Sacrifice a creature: You gain 1 psylian life.

    Which is a mix between these two cards powerwise:

    imageimage
  • edited August 2017
    @ningyounk

    A suggestion for Ajani. Currently there's no pc right now.

    Ajani, the Unforgiving

    {3}{W}{B}

    Planeswalker -- Ajani

    +1: Pay 2 psylian life. Create a 2/2 white and black Cat Rogue creature token.

    0: Until end of turn, Ajani, the Unforgiving becomes a 4/4 Cat Warrior creature with first strike and menace that's still a planeswalker.

    -X: Distribute X -1/-1 counters on any number of target creatures. You gain that much psylian life for each -1/-1 counter placed this way.

    Starting loyalty: 5
  • Changed the last ability to X.
  • @sanjaya666
    On Orzhov Ajani:
    +1: I don't think it's good to make a planeswalker so parasitic that its + ability can't be played if you put it outside a block deck specifically playing one of the block mechanics. It would be like having Saheeli requiring you to pay energy to activate her + ability.
    0: This one if funny (I like him officially getting the Cat type for once) but I feel this effect is really tied to Gideon :/ (Admittedly, Sarkhan the Dragonspeaker did it too.)
    -X: -1/-1 counters are a mechanic by themselves, if we made this card it would mean that we could not use +1/+1 counters in the same set. Flavourfully, I'm pretty sure a Renaissance set wants +1/+1 counters over -1/-1 counters ^^ Also, -1/-1 counters have a much more narrow design space, we probably shouldn't inflict that to ourselves, we barely know what are doing without digging for more difficulties x)
  • @ningyounk So, scrap all the psylian life thing, -1/-1 counters and that Gideon thing from Ajani then? Ok...

    How about this?

    {3}{W}{B}

    Planeswalker -- Ajani

    +1: Reveal the top two cards of your library. Put a card among them into your hand and the rest into your graveyard.

    -1: Exile target nonland permanent. You lose life equal to its converted mana cost.

    -X: Create X 2/2 white and black Cat Rogue creature token with lifelink and menace.

    Starting loyalty: 5
  • I would suggest that the minus one becomes minus two, and doesn't hurt you nearly as much, though I'm not quite sure how to word it.
  • Hopefully this is closer to what you're looking for.
    -----
    -2: Exile target nonland permanent. Then lose life equal to half its converted mana cost, rounded up.
    -----
  • edited August 2017
    @modnation675 That sounds great. I suppose...

    Ajani, the Unforgiving

    {3}{W}{B}

    Legendary Planeswalker -- Ajani

    +1: Reveal the top two cards of your library. Put a card among them into your hand and the rest into your graveyard.

    -2: Exile target nonland permanent. You lose life equal to half its converted mana cost, rounded up.

    -X: Create X 2/2 white and black Cat Rogue creature token with lifelink and menace.

    Starting loyalty: 5

    Alright, let someone makes this then.
  • edited August 2017
    By the way, put the legendary before it due to the new Ixalan rule. But I think it doesn't work with the current cardsmith, doesn't it?

    Goodbye planeswalker uniqueness.
  • I wonder what nonlegendary planeswalkers will be like.
  • @sanjaya666 On WB Ajani:
    I like that you revisited effects from the previous versions of Ajani ^^ But I want to stress a very important matter for planeswalker design: What's the vision for this WB Ajani? We can make three perfectly fine abilities for it, but if they don't tell a story and synergize once put together, the sum of three acceptable abilities still won't make a planeswalker card ^^

    GW Ajani is the super-buddy. He has three iconic abilities: gaining life, pumping your team (planeswalkers usually included) and calling for friends (tutor creatures and planeswalkers from the top of the library.) Why is Ajani WB? Did he die? Does he take the power instead of helping others now? Is he a bad guy? I'm having a hard time defining what the version of Ajani you presented above would really represent.

    Here's an example with an Ajani that wants the power to itself:

    image


    ==> It's full of holes mechanically but you get the spirit: I didn't throw those three abilities together at random, I tried to tell a story about how Ajani had a really bad day and is done with helping people, stopping to nothing (from working with the opponent to sacrificing friends) in order to become selfishly invincible x)
    So what's your vision for this planeswalker? (Note that you can change the colours and the planeswalker as well ^^) You don't have to rush, take your time finding an idea, a vision, that inspires you with something you think is interesting ^^
  • edited August 2017
    @ningyounk Isn't removing a creature every turn FREELY added with that kind of bonus seems to be OP?

    Also, you should give detail about the second ability since you can practically distribute the loyalty among another Ajanis that you control due to the new planeswalker rule.
  • @sanjaya666 It is completely OP and probably doesn't work by the rules ^^ Planeswalker design is not something you come up in 5mn x) Please ignore the power level, the art, etc. The only concept I want to push with this example is this: The abilities must make sense on the specific planeswalker they are on, they must be linked, and give an identity to the planeswalker ^^ What's important here is the story, the identity. You're designing a whole planeswalker, not just abilities ^^ So what path would you choose to give your planeswalker its own identity, its own gimmick?
  • If we wanted to make ajani fit with the WB mechanic set of life gain/ loss I think the -2 as it is makes a lot of sence. Suppose we kept that, made the + make the token with life link and menace, and then made the ult something flashy that synergies with gaining or losing life. Thinking something along the lines of:

    5 starting loyalty

    +1: create a 2/2 white and black cat rogue creature token with lifelink and menace

    -2: exile target non-land permanent. You lose life equal to its converted mana cost

    -7: you get an emblem with "At the begining of each end step, gain psylian life equal to half the life you lost this turn, rounded down"
  • edited August 2017
    Deleted.


  • Speaking of B/W mechanics set, here are some uncommons. Vengeful strike may have to be a rare.
    image
    image
  • Idk about this but I think its funny.
    image
  • @ningyounk Make Ajani a bit more pragmatic instead of being all out insane.

    Like "Hey, why should I help people? What are the benefits for me anyway? I'm really tired of this all bullshit. Let's just build some (crime) organizations that would be beneficial for me and my followers instead. And I'm the one who has the power here (he's an experienced walker, fighter and master of life and and banishment magic), why should I fear them?"

    So, instead of helping people, he should become a sort of mafia boss or something like that, gaining followers who would be beneficial for him while removing any obstacles to get what he desires, like eternal life or riches or things that could grant someone awesome magical power or something like that.
  • @sanjaya666
    While I'm not against it, we need a reason why Ajani would do that. Something related to Ahmonkhet might work, since he's had feuds with Bolas before.
  • @Lujikul Yeah, he couldn't just gone all psycho especially when Bolas is also planning on something to gain power too.
  • @atrus159
    On WB Ajani: Maybe a little example would help convey my message about designing a whole planeswalker instead of three abilities better actually. Let's look at the last Ajani from Aether Revolt:

    image


    All three abilities are completely tied to what we know about Ajani. It's screaming "I'm the support planeswalker." The first ability is *NOT* an Anticipation ability. It hasn't been put here because Ajani especially needed to help card flow, or because it symbolizes that Ajani is clever and thinks ahead. It's here for pure flavour reasons: Ajani is calling for help. He's looking for buddies. As already mentioned the second ability is not here to represent Swords to Plowshare because Ajani would be a fierce character, it's here because he needed a strong protection ability at 6 mana and this one happens to play in his healer theme. The utimate is just his most iconic ability pumped up ^^

    So yes, the second ability you mentioned for instance would fit on a WB planeswalker. But what does it tell us? Swords to Plowshares have never been an iconic ability of Ajani, so why reverse this one specifically? All three abilities work, but what are they telling us about this Ajani? They could work sure, but is this card about Ajani being a Cat Lord? About being evil? About being a yin-yang type of planeswalker?

    On Highcourt Fop: I think it would break the colour pie to have such a strong repeatable drawing effect outside Blue. Has it been done before? Maybe a more White effect would be more suitable? +1/+1 counters? You gain that much life plus one psylian life instead? Target creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn? Untap target creature? Etc.

    On Vengeful Strike: It perfectly plays in the life-matters theme, in another set it may have cause a memory issue but as the whole set asks you to monitor your life total closer than usual, I think that's a perfect fit. Also it screams "Black is the destruction colour like it always should have been" at one mana ^^ I really like it personnally =) You're right though, it may be a little too strong. But losing life is a cost in itself, and it necessitates some preparation outside answering an attack. Maybe -0/-X would be a little less strong? The usual nonblack nonartifact creature restriction could also be applied otherwise? It does look good at uncommon.

    On Tomescrapper: I'm conflicted about this one. It's a really cool design! It's original, it's on theme, it's flashy, but I'm not sure that would be ok without Green because this is also some kind of ramp (basically a reverse Courser of Kruphix.) Maybe it could go full mode and let you play anything from the top of your opponent's library?

    @sanjaya666 The card above was just an exaggerated example, I do not think it would be good to have a psycho Ajani either ^^ We do have a secret organization on Rezatta, but it would not make a lot of sense for Ajani to be the boss of them. Since their story is so tied to the traditions of this plane and the Muses, it kinda have to be locals running this group, I believe. Dack Fayden would probably be a good recruit for a group of thieves though, if we decide to keep him around in the file, which is another reason why I would be reluctant to tie Ajani to the secret group.
    Once again, it doesn't have to be Ajani, by the way ^^ For instance, we probably should lock the colours of the Da Vinci Planeswalker before deciding which planeswalkers are returning ^^ I'm having difficulties imagining Da Vinci without Blue, which is going to cause friction with Dack unfortunately :/ Keeping Da Vinci as a legendary creature, removing Dack, keeping one of them out of blue are as many options but we probably will have to choose one.
  • @ningyounk white sometimes gets repeatable card draw if it requires you to build around a white mechanic. An example would be mentor of the meek which lets you pay 1 to draw a card as long as you have small creatures entering play, or pure steel paladin which lets you draw cards as long as you have equipment entering play. That said, i think it should probably be reduced to just triggering on your end step.
  • @atrus159 White has access to cantrips like all colours (Mentor of the Meek just turn your small creatures into cantrips for instance) but it's really different from actually drawing cards from a colour pie point of view. I checked the mechanical colour pie article just to be sure, it says:

    "White has a very narrow band of card drawing where it's focused on having to use a specific strategy (like say having a deck full of Equipment). All colors get cantrips (spells that draw you a single card)."

    So "At the beginning of each end step, if you gained life this turn, draw a card" is definitely out of White's part of the colour pie. White is simply supposed to be bad at card drawing as it's the colour with the most answers. This pushes you to play it with another colour better at drawing cards if you want to draw those answers. It's an important weakness to keep the balance between colours ^^
  • I think Ajani should still be w/g. This is a life matters set and w/g are life gain colors.
  • @TezzeretofCarmot21 Yeah, unless we get a really cool idea for a twist, WG Ajani is probably a very good fit for this set's theme ^^
  • @ningyounk what if we upped it to "if you've gained 5 or more life this turn"? I think at that point to use it consistently you have to actually be a life gain deck or be trying to trigger it with 5 power life link creatures (in which case you are both sacrificing consistency and running a life-linking four-five drop over other potentially better ones)
  • @atrus159 I simply don't think White is supposed to have free card draw, I believe it hurts the balance of the colour pie even if you have to gain 10 life.

    Here's an example:

    2UU
    Sorcery
    CARDNAME deals 4 damage to target creature.

    I think we all agree this should be red, not blue. Now if I do this:

    2UU
    Sorcery
    If you draw three or more cards this turn, CARDNAME deals 4 damage to target creature.

    Does it make it ok? No, it's still a red card that should remain in Red. This is probably a Blue/Red card actually ^^ White is simple not supposed to get that much card draw I'm affraid :/
This discussion has been closed.