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Carmaton Set Primer
Some of you may have noticed I have not been too active on the forums the last few months. The reason for this is that I have been working on a custom set of my own….
Carmaton
Here are some quick hits:
- Large set
- Designed for standard, according to modern design principles.
- Top-down, based on Arthurian Legend.
- Tone is targeted at “class struggle” meets “high fantasy”
- Minor tribal themes
- 4 new mechanics
In this post I am going to introduce the mechanical framework of the set. First, the factions and their mechanics:
Knights
The realm of Carmaton is protected from harm by a legion of valorous knights. Knights show up in Red, White, and Black. Their mechanic is a keyword ability -- Chivalry:
Chivalry N (Whenever this creature attacks, you may tap an untapped creature you control with lesser power. If you do, this creature gets +N/+N until end of turn.)
Knights are eager to show their prowess in battle by defending the weak. I think that this mechanic does a great job of capturing the flavor of Knights while also playing well. This is the first mechanic I designed for the set and I expect it to stay unchanged (as it has so far) for the rest of development.
Nobles
The realm of Carmaton is ruled by a handful of privileged and self-serving nobles. Nobles show up in Blue and Black. Their mechanic is an ability word -- Nobility:
Nobility – If you control a creature with greatest converted mana cost or tied for the greatest, [EFFECT].
Nobles are born into their station and seek to manipulate the political landscape to their own ends. The mechanical interpretation of privilege” I chose was converted mana cost. They may not be the strongest or most capable (high power/toughness) but they are of noble birth (high CMC). This mechanic has changed slightly in its execution so far but has remained (and will continue to do so) focused around CMC.
Serfs
The realm of Carmaton is populated by countless working-class agrarian serfs. Serfs show up in White and Green. Their mechanic is a keyword ability – Labor:
Labor (You may untap tapped creatures you control as you cast this spell. Each creature you untap this way pays for 1.)
Serfs farm the realm’s food, work its shops, and are generally treated like second class citizens by the ruling Nobles. But they work hard and they help each other out as a community, as represented by their mechanic. Labor is similar to convoke but is different in 3 key ways: 1) Cannot make colored mana, 2) Untaps creatures, and 3) required creatures to be tapped. This mechanic has been redesigned about 10 times, and this is only the current version.
In addition to these, a fourth mechanic will appear in all five colors at all rarities. This mechanic is the “glue” of the set, provides card flow, ties several themes together all while evoking the flavor of the realm as a whole. This mechanic is Quest.
Quest (Whenever this creature completes its quest, if it hasn’t already, draw a card. Then put a +1/+1 counter on it).
Creatures with quest will have some other text that says “When [something happens], CARDNAME completes its quest.” This mechanic has gone through a few iterations and the main point of contention with the current version is whether the first quest completion should award a +1/+1 counter in addition to the card draw.
Limited Archetypes
Here are the current limited archetypes. Blanks indicate the theme still has to be fleshed out.
WU: Quest Midrange
UB: Hi CMC Aggro/Control
BR: _________ Aggro
RG: Power greater than base power Midrange
GW: Lands matter Aggro/Control
WB: +1/+1 counters Midrange
BG: Graveyard ramp Control
GU: “Reset” (Blink/bounce) Midrange/Control
UR: ________
RW: Chivalry Aggro
Closing Remarks
This represents a rough outline of the major elements of Carmaton. As of now I have designed roughly 50% of the set and about 85% of the commons. Soon enough, I will be posting more about the flavor of the world and the completed common set skeleton.
In the meantime, any feedback, questions, or comments you have would be greatly appreciated.
What do you think of Carmaton?
Carmaton
Here are some quick hits:
- Large set
- Designed for standard, according to modern design principles.
- Top-down, based on Arthurian Legend.
- Tone is targeted at “class struggle” meets “high fantasy”
- Minor tribal themes
- 4 new mechanics
In this post I am going to introduce the mechanical framework of the set. First, the factions and their mechanics:
Knights
The realm of Carmaton is protected from harm by a legion of valorous knights. Knights show up in Red, White, and Black. Their mechanic is a keyword ability -- Chivalry:
Chivalry N (Whenever this creature attacks, you may tap an untapped creature you control with lesser power. If you do, this creature gets +N/+N until end of turn.)
Knights are eager to show their prowess in battle by defending the weak. I think that this mechanic does a great job of capturing the flavor of Knights while also playing well. This is the first mechanic I designed for the set and I expect it to stay unchanged (as it has so far) for the rest of development.
Nobles
The realm of Carmaton is ruled by a handful of privileged and self-serving nobles. Nobles show up in Blue and Black. Their mechanic is an ability word -- Nobility:
Nobility – If you control a creature with greatest converted mana cost or tied for the greatest, [EFFECT].
Nobles are born into their station and seek to manipulate the political landscape to their own ends. The mechanical interpretation of privilege” I chose was converted mana cost. They may not be the strongest or most capable (high power/toughness) but they are of noble birth (high CMC). This mechanic has changed slightly in its execution so far but has remained (and will continue to do so) focused around CMC.
Serfs
The realm of Carmaton is populated by countless working-class agrarian serfs. Serfs show up in White and Green. Their mechanic is a keyword ability – Labor:
Labor (You may untap tapped creatures you control as you cast this spell. Each creature you untap this way pays for 1.)
Serfs farm the realm’s food, work its shops, and are generally treated like second class citizens by the ruling Nobles. But they work hard and they help each other out as a community, as represented by their mechanic. Labor is similar to convoke but is different in 3 key ways: 1) Cannot make colored mana, 2) Untaps creatures, and 3) required creatures to be tapped. This mechanic has been redesigned about 10 times, and this is only the current version.
In addition to these, a fourth mechanic will appear in all five colors at all rarities. This mechanic is the “glue” of the set, provides card flow, ties several themes together all while evoking the flavor of the realm as a whole. This mechanic is Quest.
Quest (Whenever this creature completes its quest, if it hasn’t already, draw a card. Then put a +1/+1 counter on it).
Creatures with quest will have some other text that says “When [something happens], CARDNAME completes its quest.” This mechanic has gone through a few iterations and the main point of contention with the current version is whether the first quest completion should award a +1/+1 counter in addition to the card draw.
Limited Archetypes
Here are the current limited archetypes. Blanks indicate the theme still has to be fleshed out.
WU: Quest Midrange
UB: Hi CMC Aggro/Control
BR: _________ Aggro
RG: Power greater than base power Midrange
GW: Lands matter Aggro/Control
WB: +1/+1 counters Midrange
BG: Graveyard ramp Control
GU: “Reset” (Blink/bounce) Midrange/Control
UR: ________
RW: Chivalry Aggro
Closing Remarks
This represents a rough outline of the major elements of Carmaton. As of now I have designed roughly 50% of the set and about 85% of the commons. Soon enough, I will be posting more about the flavor of the world and the completed common set skeleton.
In the meantime, any feedback, questions, or comments you have would be greatly appreciated.
What do you think of Carmaton?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Would love to get your feedback on my custom set!
First of all, I am incredibly impressed by your set template. Your mechanics are well thought out and very flavorful. The Arthurian theme (for now) is relatively unexplored and I cannot wait to see what you do with the set.
I think the most important trait to address in your set is that there is no support for noncreature spells. Almost all of your abilities are for creatures only, and even Labor requires a devoted creature base. I think for your set to be truly developed, you must devote some archetypes to noncreature spells and probably tweak some abilities accordingly.
Here are some random ideas for incorporating noncreature mechanics in your set:
- Many high fantasy settings have the trope of secluded mystics divining the future. Scry could be supported in Carmaton like it was in Theros.
- There could be artifacts with the subtype of Relic. Spells of all types can synergize with Relics. Treasure tokens can also be utilized
- Maybe something involving Potions and Alchemists?
Also, google Eldraine. WotC is sorry.
Here's a bit of feedback on Carmaton so far:
- The High Fantasy theme is a bit loose to support a whole set, it's usually more of a background flavour like you see on Dominaria, most MTG sets actually have a bit of it (I have the same problem with my Renaissance set, which is used on Fiora, Ravnica, etc. as a background thing.) I think the trick is to focus heavily on some themes that set your set apart from the rest. For instance, the Arthurian Legend is a good one, you could make the Knights of the Round Table, the Graal, etc. The other thing is you should probably find a secondary theme to mix with your main theme. For instance, how WOTC mixed in the Bolas flavour on Amonkhet to compensate for the lack of Egyptian tropes.
- About the mechanics:
• Chivalry: It's simple and should play well, but it's not particularly difficult to enable so beware of not making the bonuses too big. At higher rarities, it could have pretty interesting gameplay by caring about the creatures you tap.
•Nobility: There hasn't been much design space explored around CMC so this could be interesting. I actually think it could be more interesting on noncreature spells, because if you put it on a high CMC creature it's going to be enabled 99% of the time.
• Labor: It sounds really interesting, much more difficult to use than Convoke but with the compensation of untapping your creatures. I'm a fan of the synergy with Chivalry.
• Quest: I like the concept behind it but it sounds very wordy and could create tracking issues if you have many permanents on the battlefield, each with their own different quests. I also feel like the +1/+1 counter could feel a bit underwhelming, especially because it's going to be hard to add bonuses for completing the quest on higher rarity cards because of space issues (you'd expect "as long as CARDNAME completed its quest", or "Whenever CARDNAME completes its quest", but you're going to run into a space problem very quickly if you have to define the quest and put the keyword on top of that.
•OVERALL: There are some cool synergies in the mechanics, Chivalry wants you to have high power which usually means higher CMC for Nobility, Chivalry also taps permanents for Labor, and Labor helps you play higher CMC cards for Nobility.
The general feel is more of a very nitty-gritty story about social classes rather than a high fantasy story with knights fighting dragons etc. like the Quest mechanic is hinting at. I wonder if the factions system is really helping the main theme of the set, you might want to explore other flavours for the same mechanics and see if you can reinforce the High Fantasy feel instead.
I think the Quest mechanic could make the set really unique, but I'd iterate again to make it more impactful and exciting. Maybe it's a good place to use an alternative frame, to help with the wordiness?
Here's an out-of-the-box idea for Quest, as an example of how the mechanic can be used to give more uniqueness to the set (it's a little clunky, I just came up with it and tried to made it an objet you put on the opponent's side of the board so you can attack it, but it was really weird for templating the abilities):
Admittedly this mechanic is full of holes, but the concept is that you can make the mechanic more flashy to help your set stand out.
- About the archetypes: make sure that all types of gameplay styles are available, you'll usually want some aggro, some control, some midrange, some disruptive aggro, and some combo. Some choices are a little weird, I have a hard time imagining how the UB archetype can care about high CMC while still being aggro for instance. You might want to push the tribal aspect a bit more if it's really important, generally every set has at least one tribal archetype anyways. The archetypes care about a lot of things at once, it might be hard to give enough support to things like RG Lands and BG Graveyard at the same time since they hardly interact with the main mechanical themes of the set in general. BG Ramp sounds like a good idea to support the high CMC theme of the UB archetype, but you might not want to care about the graveyard on top of this. Which archetype rewards you for playing Labor? WB seems like a good idea since White can tap the creatures with the RW Chivalry theme to fuel Labor, while Black will appreciate the high CMC of the Labor cards for its UB high-CMC theme.
___
EDIT: I just saw the Eldraine plane displayed at Comic-Con, I was curious what was your plan? Do you want to dodge the comparison? Steer the set in a slightly different version of the High-Fantasy theme (maybe monster hunters à la Witcher?) Change the theme entirely?
Thanks for the feedback and compliments!
I agree 100% that all the mechanics are creature-centric. The one caveat to this is nobility, which will almost exclusively go on noncreature spells (otherwise it is not as interesting). I also am going to make The UR Archetype the classic spells matter theme to alleviate this issue. Also, I am planning on increasing the relative raw power of noncreatures slightly compared to creatures to prevent an overreliance on Creatures only.
I don’t think I have room mechanically to care about a new artifact subtype, but I am using treasure tokens at a high frequency (I am actually using functionally identical “Gold” tokens to better match the flavor. They do a few things in the set: 1) help enable nobility without explicit cost reduction, 2) enable control/ramp strategies at minimal gain to Aggro, and 3) proving marginal color fixing.
You make a great point about the secondary trope theme. Right now I don’t have an idea for one but I think there is an opportunity for it to be included. FYI: Imisspoke in my first post — the set is Arthurian Legend meets Class Struggle.
Chivalry - You are spot on. This mechanic is exclusivdly going on vanilla/French vanilla/ virtual vanilla creatures at common.
Nobility - once again, exactly what I was thinking. So far, all the Nobility cards I have designed are noncreatures and I expect it to be 1-2 Nobility creatures in the whole set when all is said and done, with very specific designs that justify putting the mechanic on creatures.
Quest - this mechanic does have space issues for sure. I have yet to come up with an elegant solution to unify the mechanic in one line of text, but if I did that would help a lot. The counter is there for a few reasons: 1) tracking 2) reward for completing quests multiple times and 3) scaling into late game on low cost creatures.
I think of Quest as the glue of the set so I agree that it could benefit from a more novel mechanical treatment. It does ask the player to track a lot in complex board states but the rest of the mechanics are so simple I think it is okay to put most of the sets complexity here. Your example with a redone Quest mechanic is probably a good start to make the mechanic more flashy.
As for the factions, they exist to build the tone of world (class struggle...tension between Nobles/Serfs, with Knights keeping the peace between the two). Quest is meant to show the essence of the world (Arthurian Legend) aside from the current conflict. I think there may be some shoring up to do here as you suggested, but so far I have found the class struggle piece to translate quite well to the Nobles/serfs on the cards so to be honest I am loath to give it up at least right now.
Archetypes - I am still tinkering with 3-4 of the archetypes so I expect a number of them to change themes/roles from their current states.
As for Eldraine, it is somewhat unfortunate that its setting is Camelot since one of my primary motives for picking the Arthurian Legend theme was that it was very resonant and essentially unexplored mechanically in MTG. Now that this is no longer going to be the case, I will shift pieces of the set but not the whole thing.
The one thing that seems to be to my benefit is that Eldraine is a fairy tale/storybook world first and Camelot second while Carmaton is a Camelot world first and foremost. I expect there will be a good amount of thematic overlap, but from the Art previews of Eldraine, it is pretty clear aesthetically and thematically that the worlds are quite different. I think my execution of Carmaton will end up more high fantasy than it otherwise might have because of Eldraine, but not substantially different.
Thanks a million for your feedback on my Quest mechanic! Based on your feedback, I had a Eureka moment and reconcepted the entire mechanic to solve a ton of issues. Here is the change:
Old Version (Keyword Ability, only goes on creatures): Quest (whenever this creature completes its quest, if it hasn’t already, draw a card. Then, put a +1/+1 counter on it.)
New Version (Keyword Action, no type restrictions): …target creature quests (To quest, put a +1/+1 counter on target creature and you get a quest counter.)
To accompany the new version, there would be a reminder token card in the style of sagas that would contain the following:
• Reminder text (Whenever a creature you control quests, you get a quest counter.)
Chapters 1, 4, and 7: Draw a card.
Chapters 2, 5, and 8: Create a Gold token (differently named treasure).
Chapters 3, 6, and 9: Scry 2.
Chapter 10: You win the game.
The way this new version of the mechanic works is that now all your quest creatures are working towards a common goal rather than their own goals, represented in the flavor as finding the Holy Grail (with a different name).
Here is how this change solves issues with the earlier version of the mechanic
1) Card types: Before Quest could only go on creatures. Now it can go on any card type.
2) Text space: Before Quest required two separate abilities to work. Now it requires one simple ability with minimal reminder text.
3) Design space: Before Quest was limited in how it could be executed. Now a whole new swath of designs are possible.
4) Flavor: Before Quest had a clear flavor but no implicit connection between cards that shared the mechanic. Now, there is a clear flavor element that not only ties the mechanic together flavorfully but helps to clarify the story/set themes.
5) Novelty: One of @ningyounk points was that there was room to innovate with this mechanic. I think this change innovates in the following ways:
a. Uses the # of counters on a player as a guide for which effect occurs.
b. Uses a reminder token card in a new way to track a game element.
c. Translates existing technology (Sagas) to a new medium in a familiar way.
A few notes on the mechanic itself:
1) I chose each of the three effects (Card draw, gold token, Scry) because they are allowed in all colors. In this way, these generic rewards can span different colors and any more narrow rewards for Questing can be put on individual cards.
2) I want the card draw to go first so that the first quest cantrips, helping with card flow in the early game.
3) Scry 2 ends up in chapters 3/6/9 so that it always precedes the card draw ability in chapters 4 and 7.
4) I chose to use gold tokens since they are already prevalent in the set.
5) I could potentially either the gold token or the scry ability turn into some sort of creature token if needed.
6) I like the idea of repeating the first 3 effects three times so that the effects all clearly fit on the reminder card and create a familiar pattern.
7) I don’t expect the “win the game” effect to occur all too often. Most likely the player will have won the game through damage by then unless they are in the Quests matter archetype.
8) I like the effect that giving the creature that quests a +1/+1 counter has on the set as it plays into several draft archetypes and advances the board directly.
Here are some examples of cards with the new execution of quest at lower rarities:
Slay the Fiend 3W
Instant C
Destroy target creature with power 4 or greater.
Up to one target creature you control quests.
Questing Baloth 4G
Creature – Beast C
Trample
Whenever CARDNAME deals combat damage to a player, it quests.
4/3
Ambitious Commoner 1B
Creature – Human Serf C
Whenever you cast a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater, CARDNAME quests.
2/1
”One day, that’ll be me.”
Apprentice Alchemist 2U
Creature – Human Wizard U
U, T, Sacrifice a nontoken artifact: Flip a coin. If you win the flip, create a number of Gold tokens equal to CARDNAME’s power and it quests.
1/3
Grandstand Gambler 1R
Creature – Human Serf U
Whenever one or more other creatures you control with power greater than its base power attacks, you may discard a card. If you do, CARDNAME quests.
2/1
”I’ll put everything I got on the big guy!”
Crusader’s Resolve W
Instant U
Target creature gets +1/+1 for each quest counter you have.
Let me know what you think of this mechanical change!
Some more feedback on the new iteration:
I like the alternate win condition, it's really bold but not unheard of as we already have poison counters and I really think this is much less problematic than poison counters.
I like the synergy between the Scry chapter and the draw chapter, it's pretty ingenuous. I also think it's cool that you kept the quest counters separated from the creatures that completed the quest, since it won't be mixed with the +1/+1 counters this way.
Having hidden rules tied to a mechanic that doesn't appear in its rules text is not impossible (Monarch, Contraptions, etc.) but it's still a downside that will considerably increase the complexity of the set as a whole. Maybe it would be good enough to have "Put a +1/+1 counter on it and you get a quest counter. Then, if you have ten or more quest counters, you win the game" with some cards having "Whenever you put a +1/+1 counter on CARDNAME, scry 2" for instance
The cyclic nature of the rewards is also a bit confusing to me, I think it could be more elegant if it scales somehow (e.g. Scry X where X is your number of Quest counters), or if you got to choose from three options each time you quest for instance (in this case, I'd offer different types of ressources so maybe life gain insead of Scry for example). Another, bolder, option would be to embrace the complexity of it and maybe have some quest objects that you draft like contraptions so you can pull them out of a secondary deck whenever a creature does a quest. This one's just a though thrown in the air though x)
I have made almost all the commons—I expect to post the common design skeleton in the next few days before Eldraine previews.
I have refined the draft archetypes as follows:
WU: Quest Midrange
UB: Hi CMC Control
BR: Power greater than base power Aggro
RG: _____ Midrange
GW: Go Wide Aggro/Midrange
WB: +1/+1 counters Midrange
BG: Graveyard Control
GU: “Reset” (Blink/bounce) Midrange/Control
UR: Card Draw Aggro/Control
RW: Chivalry Aggro
I have refined some of the Archetype speeds (Aggro/Midrange/ control) and redefined UR as “card draw matters". I am still looking for a good label for RG—I moved the P> base P Archetype from RG to BR to better take advantage of its synergy with Chivalry and overlap with the BW counters Archetype. I also need to specify the mechanical identity of the BG graveyard Archetype further.
I like this Archetype structure because it has the disparate parts of the Quest mechanic synergize with 5 archetypes (WU/UB/WB/UR).
One other change I have been mulling over is to tweak the quest mechanic by either putting the +1/+1 counter on the creature or advancing the quest. This creatures more tension and decision making and I think will result in better gameplay as the decision will change based on both the game state and the number of quest counters you have.
-Noble and Serf creature types (Serf has only been used on tokens so far and nobles are brand new).
-Gold tokens (same as treasure tokens but with a more medieval flavor)
At long last, the first draft of the common design skeleton is complete! You can find it in the link below:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17S990LvHD0ShXx_aOwA18-ONaLxtqKNOqtxRA7VCxu8/edit?usp=sharing
A few notes on the general story beats to put some of the flavor in context:
-Carmaton is Class Struggle + Camelot
-The 3 key story/flavor elements are:
1) The quest for the HOLY GRAIL (in-world name TBD)
2) An unnatural blight on the land called The Withering
3) Rising tensions between the three classes (Serfs / Knights /Nobles)
Some key characters/concepts:
1) The HOLY GRAIL -- The GRAIL is an old Urza artifact of great power hidden in Carmaton. Its exact powers are TBD but the whole realm has been searching for it for millenia with no success (each color has a different reason).
2) Venser -- Due to some time shenanigans (exact specifics TBD), Venser appears in this set as the "Merlin" figure. His spark is damaged and the only way for him to fix it is to use the GRAIL. For this reason, he has spread the legend of the GRAIL and convinced the realm of its importance.
3) Angrath -- Angrath is here to find a special metal for his forge but ends up fighting as a knight in the grand tourney.
4) Minerva -- Minerva is the keeper of the seed that will one day become AVALON (name TBD).
5) Sparaton -- "Lancelot" figure, leader of the knight faction
6) Jarael, the Ivory Knight -- "Gawain" figure, main questor for the GRAIL.
7) Forrthel -- The leader of the serfs and the revolutionary who is encouraging the serfs to rise up against the Nobles.
8) Lord Sengir -- A vampire directly descended from the original Baron Sengir, he is after the GRAIL for his own aims.
9) The Withering -- A blight that is affecting the whole land. This is the main driver for the Serf's uprising against the nobles. It is believed that finding the GRAIL will end the blight.
Mechanics and Limited Archetypes:
***See the posts above this***
Design Notes
1) I have put at least one payoff and enabler for each limited archetype in each color with the exception of RG which is still lacking an identity. This is purely to playtest the themes and I expect several of them will be moved to uncommon in the final set.
2) For each mechanic, I put two cards with it in each of its colors as a baseline. This may need to be changed and is onyl a starting point.
3) The yellow boxes indicate cards that I am unsure of and are likely not optimal for their role.
Feedback
I am looking for feedback from the community in the following areas:
1) Individual card designs
2) Archetype designs
3) Set mechanics
4) Power level
In additon, here are some high level questions I have that I would love additional feedback on:
1) Is the Class Struggle theme enough to complement the Camelot setting alone?
2) Does the Class Struggle them come through loud enough?
3) Does the theme of the Quest for the GRAIL come through loud enough?
Any other feedback you have would be greatly appreciated!
@ningyounk @Faiths_Guide @Temurzoa @TheCenterOfTheUniverse
It's still very rough of course, but it's one way to go with it. Another would be a vertical card with each chapter spelled out. Note that I used Treasure tokens instead of Gold since they now have built-in rules.
WHITE —
- Yoked Ox: Works great with Chivalry. Considering all the white archetypes (Aggro Go Wide, Aggro Chivalry, Midrange quest which are often Saboteur triggers, and Midrange +1/+1 counters) are quite proactive (no control archetype in White) you might want to give it 1 power (1/2 with relevant creature type?) so it can attack on turn 2.
- Village Watchman: Works great with Chivalry. I would consider making that the 1-drop and reducing the toughness accordingly. Vigilance allows to attack *then* tap for Chivalry, it's a complex interaction that you might want to emphasise in the flavour to make sure people understand it's supposed to work (make it a squire for instance).
- Crusading Chevalier: Seems appropriate since you won't reach ten counters with just this creature despite being a repeatable quester. I'm a bit scared that it starts as a 3-powered first striker already, considering it can grow. I think the first-striker of this cycle really wants to start as low as possible, at 1-power. You also might want to give it first strike during your turn only.
- Aspiring Adventurer: That's probably an uncommon actually, by the virtue of being a 1/1 that can attack for 2 on turn 2 pretty consistently. Lifelink pushes it quite over the top I'd say. My advice is to remove lifelink and make this a 1/1 for 2 (better) or a 2/2 for 3 (worst) depending on how difficult you think questing is.
- Palace Guards: Good synergy between archetypes.
- Sparaton's Vanguard: Good balancing.
- Outer Parish Patrol: This blocks as a 3/3 or attacks as a 3/3 for 4 which is fine in White but I would consider pushing it just a tiny bit by making the knight a 2/3 or giving it vigilance.
- Saddleback Griffin: Good synergy between archetypes but I would have expected this effect on a lower powered creature (to activate it with Chivalry), not on White's finisher.
- Sunwing Griffin: Good enabler
- Coppervale Sentinel: Good synergy. I think it's well balanced.
- Scarred Forgehand: Having two repeatable tappers in White feels a bit like overkill, usually you get one repeatable tapper and then around two one-shot tap effects.
- Unseat: Removing from combat is not an effect you'll usually see at common these days because it can have confusing consequences. May I suggest preventing all damage dealt to and dealt by it instead?
- Brightsteel Restraints: That's a cool variation on Pacifism. I think Scry makes it a bit too good, I would go without it, like Revoke Privileges.
- Slay the Beast: Good balancing and excellent flavour.
- Hone: Is there an equipement subtheme that doesn't appear in the archetype grid? That feels a bit random.
- Work the field: Good synergy.
- Sanctify: Good utility spell.
- Rouse the Rabble: Lifelink is a bit strong for this, at common I think you'd rather go with either vigilance or instant speed.
- Dub: Cool reprint x)
OVERALL WHITE: There are 6 spells out of 12 creature spells (counting Work the Fields) that make creatures with 1 power or less. The average power of your White might be a bit too low, even with Chivalry in the set. It also makes Chivalry too easy to trigger I think. The two cards that quest are both 4-mana, and the instant requires the opponent to play a big creature. I feel the lack of ways to quest at a lower CMC. Otherwise, White seems firmly identified as an agressive army colour in this set. Mechanically, the uniqueness of the set is mostly conveyed by the quest mechanic (two 4-mana cards) and a single card that cares about Serf, with also a touch of tap/untap shenanigans. I would solidify some of the more unique aspects of the set in White since it has a bit of a Core set feel right now.
___
BLUE —
- Unlikely Inheritor: For the Vanilla creatures, it's always nice if you can give them a role specific for the set (for instance, a 0-powered vanilla creature in white is perfect for Chivalry.) In this case, since UB care about high CMC, maybe you should keep your highest CMC slot for the vanilla instead. I see you've done that with Black, I'd go double on it (5-or-6-mana in black, 6-or-7-mana in blue).
- Coldwater Snapper: It plays nicely with Nobility since it makes it difficult for the opponent to remove this very high CMC creature. It might be a little too good at that though, you might want to consider "Spells your opponents control that target CARDNAME cost 2 more to cast" for instance.
- Crusading Messenger: A bit scary to put the Saboteur quest trigger on an flying creature, especially at only 2-mana. I'd really need to playtest to feel it but this might want to be your big flyier slot instead.
- Scholar of the Crusade: It could be fine at 5 mana, though triggers that can consistently give you a quest counter in an uninteractive way is where I start to be worried for the quest mechanic at common.
- Dreampowder Clique: Nice reward that also clearly sets a mechanical goal for an archetype.
- Agent of he Fickle Queen: Seems balanced. There's probably room to tie it more into one of blue's darft archetypes ("Can't be blocked as long as you've drawn two or more cards this turn" or "AS long as you control the Creature with the highest CMC" for instance).
- Cazinth's Attendent: It does help you cast higher CMC cards but it feels a bit random in blue. Maybe there's a way to restrict how the mana can be used. Typically, I'd remove nobility and instead put "Spend this mana only to cast creature spells with converted mana cost 5 or more."
- Frost Lynx: A quality creature in any blink archetype.
- Salvager of Secrets: Another quality creature to blink.
- Mill build-around: I like the idea, though I don't think you need the X based on cards like Growth Cycle. It could be "Target player puts the top four cards of their library into their graveyard. They put an additional two cards from the top of their library into their graveyard for each card named CARDNAME in your graveyard." This might be a bit all-in for the GU recursion archetype though, do I really want to take a slot in my deck for a card that just mills me? And it's really useless in any other archetype so I'm not sure that fits at common. I think this would be much better on a creature with less cards milled each time.
- Decree of Literacy: The base power for this card feels super harsh. I think it would be more balanced as a Divination that costs 1 less with nobility like Winged Words. Or maybe a Catalog that becomes an instant divination for instance.
- Absolute Denial: Seems balanced.
- Primordial Shriek: Interesting one, I'm unsure how good or bad this is, it's the kind of cards I'd really need to playtest to make sure.
- Repel the Beast: Seems balanced, I like it. For flavour purpose, it might only want to target creatures.
- Weight of Inadequacy: It's a very soft removal, this will make it very difficult for Blue to really control the board, especially with the +1/+1 counters theme going on in WB. Considering the rest of the removal suite in Blue, I would consider upgrading this spell.
- Venser's Contemplation: Really cool double-duty spell. Both effects go well together. Instant speed to save your creatures seem a bit much though, I would make this a sorcery.
- Leverage Birthright: Really flavourful card that really emphasise a unique aspect of this specific set.
- Cloudseek: Always a fun card.
- Dreamhaze: Good synergy between archetypes.
OVERALL BLUE: The high CMC theme is novel and gives a very unique flavour to the colour. The removal might be a bit lackluster, something to consider during playtests. Having the card advantage spell of the Blink archetype at 5 mana and only Frost lynx as a creature with an ETB ability to blink, I'd consider adding an additional ETB ability at lower CMC. Just a Scry 1 or something.
- Revenant of the Lists: A Vanilla 4/6 in Black is worth 6 mana (Minotaur Abomination) since it's also a slight bend. Black isn't really supposed to have big monsters unless you have a specific reason to add them in your set, like your high CMC theme, so at best it can do 5/4 for 5 (and 4/6 equals a 5/5).
- Vengeful Afanc: Seems balanced.
- Crusading Vampire: Seems balanced, the stats might be a bit too reminiscent of the white counterpart of the cycle? Maybe 2/3 instead?
- Ambitious Commoner: Good synergy between archetypes, and there's little risk that it quests multiple time in one turn.
- Bloodthirsty Baron: Seems balanced.
- Gossipmonger: Cool new ability to emphasize the new theme.
- Blackmane Outrider: The self-mill can feel horrible, especially in Limited, it might want to be a "may" ability.
- Bloodline Protector: Black isn't really supposed to get big creatures like that, and lifelink is really pushing it way over the edge. There litterally isn't a single black common creature in MTG that has lifelink and more than 3 power. Big red flag on this one, it cannot stay like that.
- Gorging Vulture: Four cards milled is a big price to pay. It can feel really bad in Limited (the game could be lost because this milled your only bomb/planeswaker for instance).
- Court Cackler: Seems balanced and has some small synergy with the gold tokens.
- Decree of Ignorance: Not a fan of the balance which feels either too strong or not enough but never really in the right spot. I'd consider "Discard two cards" for 3 mana and a rider like 2 or 3 life loss for Nobility.
- Steroids Edict: I like to see the "If you control a creature with power greater than its base power" but the baseline of this is terrible, it's worth 2-mana, 3-mana at best, and it scales horribly as the game progresses so any additional mana makes the card much weaker. I don't think I would play it at 4-mana.
- Flay the Ignoble: It looks a bit too harsh I think, the black unconditional removal spell is always one of the most sought-after common in any set, highly splashable, and this might push it a bit much. I'd consider a nobility rider that doesn't involve card advantage. Or no more than the creation of a 1/1. My best guess would be to make it a cost reduction.
- Remembrance Proclamation: Awesome design that fits perfectly in the themes of the set.
- Weight of Failure: Seems a bit weak since the baseline is Dead Weight for 1 mana only. Could use a simple rider, for instance a variation of Death's Approach (-1/-1 for each creature card in your graveyard) could synergise better with the GB archetype.
- Second Wind: Seems balanced.
- Withering Blight: That's really strong in this set with the Chivalry going on in other colors, but it seems balanced in a vaccum.
- Trawl of the Catacombs: It's an effect I've seen used mostly in very agressive RB builds so I'm unsure how relevant it's going to be in a GB controlling deck. There isn't a lot of synergies with the other archetypes so it's one of the first slots I'd consider removing, or rather stapling onto another card. I'd personally put that on Withering Blight and make it a single 4-or-5-mana card without the Gold.
- Ward of the Undeath: Quite strong but could work. Once again, I think you're underestimating the power of lifelink a bit. This might also be redundant with the "regenerate" spell "Second Wind", usually it's one or the other in a set.
OVERALL BLACK: There are four cards that produce +1/+1 counters and only one that kind of care about it (The Steroids Edict). For the theme to be understandable, I'd add at least another card with that same line of text to signal it's a theme. I'd also remove one of the +1/+1 counters cards. Once you mix it with white, it won't be hard to make a deck where more than half your creatures have a +1/+1 counter on it. The graveyard theme was also surprisingly strong. Overall, those two themes of Graveyard and +1/+1 counters looked like they played a really important role in the set with that amount of support just in one colour, but they're not the main theme of the set. I would tone them down a bit.
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RED —
- Knight Aspirant: R.A.S. as we say in France (Rien à Signaler / Nothing to Report)
- Twin-Tail Manticore: Seems balanced based on Granitic Titan.
- Crusading Bard: I really like the balancing of this one since it can attack on turn 2 but cannot quest before turn 3. Very elegant.
- Questing Battalion: It's cool that you used this trigger, I was just thinking that they made "mini-quests" in War of the Spark for the creatures to get the +1/+1 counters to proliferate which allowed for a funnier Draft environement. It gives you a lot of good examples of triggers to use for Quest, and Battalion was one of them.
- Grugnuk Brood Calf: Seems balanced. What on earth is a Grugnuk??
- Benefactor of the Blank Line: Welcome ability in any red aggro deck that will also synergise with the BR Steroids archetype.
- Lancer of the Free Realm: That's pretty strong, but looks fun.
- Angrath's Brawler: An attacking 5/3 seems a bit much for 3-mana since it's worth 5-mana in red. Maybe a slight downside like "Must attack each turn if able" would be necessary.
- Stormkin Summoner: It's a cool pay-off but a 3/1 seems a bit over-the top. I'd make this a 3/3 that makes a 1/1 haster at most.
- SaffronOlive Elemental: I really like the "Gets +1/+0 whenever you draw a card", it's simple and elegant. It's a 3/3 for 3 on your turn by default which is a bit too much for red, I would at least remove 1 toughness.
- Seductive Larceny: I'm unsure why Red is bothering creating Gold tokens since it's more on the lower CMC aspect of the set as a colour. It's flavourful, but I don't think it synergises especially well with what Red is doing as a whole.
- Appeal to the Crowd: That's surprisingly good, I'd need to test it to feel if it's not a bit much.
- Bring Low: Looks good but a base 3 damage to target creature for 4 mana seems a bit weak. The baseline for this effect at 4-mana is 4 damage at instant speed or 5 damage at sorcery speed. The point of this card slot is to allow red to deal with the bigger creatures so I wouldn't go lower than 4 damage. Actually I would do 4 damage baseline + 7 damage if counters. This way you can do shenanigans and put +1/+1 counters on a creature you don't control to kill it.
- Tireless Search: Interesting variation on Rummagging. Land sacrifice is always a bit risky (might set a trap for newest players) but at low dose it should be fine.
- Tavern Brawl: That's exclusively a green effect, it's a colour pie break.
- Rend: Seems balanced.
- Inspire: Good synergies with many red archetypes.
- Blazing Bastion: Simple and efficient card with good synergies.
OVERALL RED: Red seems to do its job just fine, the aggro aspect is very clear. There are some fine enablers for the card draw archetype but I would really consider a creature that does rummaging whenever it attacks.
- Centaur Courser: Good
- Basilisk of Hoflet Hollow: I like the use ofbig creature + deathtouch in Green, it reminds me of Rhonas and it actually makes more sense than in Black I think.
- Crusading Centaur: I'm glad you gave it only 3 toughness because trample is a bit up there with flying in terms of evasion quality.
- Questing Treefolk: Really nice mini-quest. This could actually give you your red/green archetype: some kind of Surge mechanic but for creatures. It plays well already with the GW Go Wide, but also synergises with the GU blink archetype and even the GB recursion. It can be made different from the GW archetype if it focuses on ETB abilities. It also naturally synergises with Green usual ramp tools and red small creatures.
- Parish Plowhand: I like the Serf Tribal aspect that gives a more unique flavour to the Go Wide archetype.
- Hermit of Thrifen Copse: Good synergies between archetypes.
- Devoted Reapmaid: Good
- Deadseed Reclaimer: Works good with the GB theme though otherwise it can be a bit lackluster for a common. Might want to be an uncommon effect.
- Lumbering Orchard: So, it's possible to do self-bouncing in green, but you have to be aware that it's technically a strong colour pie bend / possibly a break. What you're proposing here would be an evolution in the colour pie, which might be a bit much in Green because of the synergies it would allow. To make this more a bend than a break, I think you should really work with the graveyard, Green can recuperate cards from the graveyard and replay them much more easily than it can bounce its own creatures to its hand. In the same space, it can also do replacement effects that send a dying creature to your hand instead of the graveyard. The fact that it can target any permanent is also a bit problematic, Green has affinity with creatures and lands but bouncing an artefact or planeswalker is a bit of a stretch.
- Fieldtiller Wurm: That's a scary one, Labor makes it a bit pushed. Great Sandwurm is already 7 mana with cycling (so 7/7 + Daunt is worth 6.5 mana basically). This should probably be 8 or 9 mana, or have a reduction in power since it has a built-in cost reduction.
- Prey Upon: Welcome reprint
- Irrigate: Great flavour and great use of the labor mechanic
- Might of the Homestead: Really nice trick with many different uses and synergies.
- Defend the Ramparts: Good use of modes to make a sideboard card more relevant.
- Mulch: Kind of a nonbo with Deadseed Reclaimer. Might want a more classic "choose a creature or land card from among them" effect in this slot.
- Toll of the Elements: Good at making Green the best at artifact/enchantment removal.
- Harvest's Vigor: Simple and useful.
OVERALL GREEN: With another 4 token producers, the token theme is VERY prominent in green. I would need to playtest but it seems a bit easy in green/white to swarm the board with a billion tokens. One of the problems I identified with green is that all the evasion is focused at 5+ mana. It probably makes the early game very uneventful, and the late game a bit crushing.
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COLORLESS —
- Battle Standard: Works fine, will have a bit of synergy with the BR archetype but it doesn't really need the help.
- Sentinel of the Grail: Cool little mini-quest.
- Mana Geode: Will do the job. Might want to address this one specifically to the UB archetype with some rider.
- Tablet of the Grail: That one's very wordy and fiddly, I'm unsure it's really suited for common.
- Evolving Wilds: Yeaaah!
- Holdout Settlement: Since you don't have a strong multicolor theme and you already have Mana Geode, you might not need this.
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OVERALL SET —
Congratulations on being this far already, the set seems to come into shape nicely. As usual, a whole card-by-card review is long so I went straight to the criticism which might sound blunt sometimes. But my feeling so far is very positive, the set is doing super well, I'd say. Among the general points I've noted:
- You already spent time on flavour texts, do you have illustration that go with those? Otherwise, you'll probably have to change them anyways, so keep that for last.
- The use of Gold feels weird now that Treasures are evergreen and have built-in rules.
- The mini-quests to advance the quest counter is one of the funniest things in the set I think ^^ I'm still unsure if the reward system is good enough, a Gold token seems like a very small reward compared to drawing a card for instance.
- Some themes could be made a bit louder and clearer to avoid the Core Set feel. Many MTG sets have a GW Go Wide theme, but yours is based on Serfs, you should highlight that. It's normal at common to have mostly enablers and less pay-offs but the uniqueness of the set can still be enhanced I think.
- I think you need a way to interact with the Quest counters to avoid bad surprises, like what happened with Energy notably. My advice would be to make the GB archetype care about counters in general by allowing you to use them as a ressource. This way players can control better what quest chapter they trigger, and they're less likely to win by accident with the Quest mechanic unless they really devote themeselves to it.
- I think some of the themes were a bit too loud. Namely, the +1/+1 counters, the token production, and the self-mill all felt like they were main themes of the set, even though they really are two-or-three coloured archetypes. I'd remove a couple of enablers in each of those archetypes, especially if playtesting shows those themes are too easy to enable as I suspect.
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In addition, here are some high level questions I have that I would love additional feedback on:
1) Is the Class Struggle theme enough to complement the Camelot setting alone?
2) Does the Class Struggle them come through loud enough?
3) Does the theme of the Quest for the GRAIL come through loud enough?
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1) Could be, you might want to find a way to really make the theme your own though. For instance, Eldraine has invented five monocoloured courts to support the Camelot theme.
2) The Serfs are 1/1 tokens used by other cards for value, the Knights are combat-oriented and the Nobles are expensive creatures that produce tempo and card advantage so it's pretty clear and well done.
3) The quest theme is fun and quite rich, you could go deeper and depict a lot of RPGs tropes (possibly even go a bit meta about it) on the cards like haggling, quest prizes, quest boards, farming mobs, looting corpses, quest difficulty, finding companions at the tavern, various traps and monsters, random old men with prophecies, etc.
The Grail also probably needs a MTG twist. It could be some planeswalker's spark for instance, that suits your story with Venser and creates an interesting story about the original owner of the spark that might want it back.
Wow!! That token is incredible! I can’t beliebe how good it looks thanks so much! You really have a talent for this kind of stuff!
I appreciate the thoroughness and effort you put into your feedback. You made a ton of excellent points. Here are my responses:
WHITE:
Yoked Ox — I put this card in the set because the flavor fit and it has additional relevance it wouldn’t normally have with Chivalry but you are correct it doesn’t really fit with the themes.
Village Watchman —I love your suggestion to turn this into a Squire to use the flavor to emphasize the connection to Chivalry. Awesome idea!
Crusading Chevalier — I agree that 3 power is too much. I am afraid 1 power may be difficult to balance as well because first strike scales so well with counters and with one power it would cost either 2 or 3 which would likely be much too strong and much too weak respectively. I considered first strike only on your turn but that would break the symmetry of the cycle and since this is incentivized to attack I think it will be on defense less than normal. What do you think if either a 4W 3/2 or 5W 3/3 with the same text box,
Aspiring Adventurer — There actually isn’t a way to quest on turn 2 at common and won’t be any way to do so except for at rare (by design). Does this change your opinion on the power level?
Outer Parish Patrol — I purposely designed this to be a little on the weak side because it supports two archetypes (GW/WR) so well. I think a third point of toughness is a good add if it needs a boost from play test experience.
Scarred Forgehand — you make a good point about repeatable rappers. Since all the mechanics rely on creatures, I am a little worried about white being able to break board stalls. I think I will start out with this for playtesting and see if it really is redundant but it is likely you are right.
Unseat — I know the effect is unconventional but the flavor is perfect as is and the untap/remove from combat makes this card much more lenticular than with the prevent damage wording.
Brightsteel Restraints — I tacked on the scry to make it the FIRE common for white. I agree it might be too much though.
Hone — There isn’t an equipment theme (at least not yet) but there are some artifact payoffs at uncommon and the flavor is pretty good. Depending on how the set shakes out I might make it into a minor artifact.
Rouse the Rabble — this is the Serf version of Rush of Battle from KTK (warriors). Even though there are more Serf tokens, i still think it is ok although I will certainly watch out to see if the Lifegain is too powerful. I don’t want to use vigilance because it is quite strong with chivalry and is heavily anti-synergistic with labor.
OVERALL WHITE —I think you are right that I have too many small creatures. I also agree that white needs a quest card at 2 of 3 mana. I will work on converting some of the more mundane cards to more unique concepts. Great feedback!
BLUE:
Unlikely Inheritor / Coldwater Snapper — I decided to make one of the two vanilla/French vanilla creatures in each of blue / black have CMC 5+. I chose the Snapper as a reprint because the Hexproof played well with maintaining nobility. I think the card is generally pretty weak particularly because the UB deck will already be too heavy to enable nobility so I am not too worried about it but I will certainly watch out for it in playtesting.
Crusading Messenger — excellent point! How do you feel about a 3U 2/2 with the same text box.
Scholar of the Crusade — that is a good point, one thing i don’t want is a quest “victory” (10 quest counters) that you can’t interact with. This one will definitely be on the watch list.
Agent of the Fickle Queen — I thought about tying the unblockable ability to nobility as you suggested but it felt better as a pure mana sink with no other ties to complete the cycle in each color.
Cazinth's Attendant — your suggestion was the way I had it for months until I changed it to use nobility recently. I think I am going to change it back.
Mill Build Around — I am trying to incorporate a secondary mill Archetype in blue. I have since changed it to “mill = # instant or sorceries in your graveyard”. How do you feel about that.
Decree of Literacy (U) / Ignorance (B) — I will talk about both of these here because they are a mirrored pair. I think the best alternative is the cost reduction you suggested, which is generally stronger than the current version at its base rate (Divination / mind rot). I think i actually want these cards to be weaker without nobility to incentivize the player to build around them so I am probably going to leave them for now, though if playtesting shows that they are too weak I will change them to the cost reduction variants.
Primordial Shriek — in the set I have been trying to staple sideboard effects onto a second weak effect in a modal card. I think the best knob to play with on this card is the -N/-0 effect. I might reduce it it -3/-0 if -4/-0 is too much.
Repel the Beast — great point, I changed it to creatures only.
Weight of Inadequacy — you make a good point about blue's removal and this effect is particularly weak in a set with chivalry and +1/+1 counters. How would you improve it? Flash? Base P/T 0/1? Redo the entire concept as a claustrophobia variant?
Venser's Contemplation — good point! I changed it to a sorcery.
OVERALL BLUE: Thanks for bringing up the point about the removal, that escaped my notice. I will try to fit in another cheap ETB ability as you suggested.
BLACK:
Revenant of the Lists: You are 100% correct. I changed it to a 4/5.
Crusading Vampire — since I am planning to change the white member of the cycle, I am not too worried about this one’s stats any more.
Blackmane Outrider — I think I am going to go back to the drawing board on this one.
Bloodline Protector — you are 100% correct that this is unsuitable for common. I like the interaction between lifelink and chivalry, but it probably has to be on a 2 power creature with Chivalry 1.
Gorging Vulture — I like this as a way to enable the graveyard Archetype and gain some life against Aggro. I am not too worried about milling my bomb with this because I can use the common raise dead effect to get it back.
Steroids Edict — I love your name for the Archetype! Very appropriate. I am just gonna redo this one as it is a complete mess.
Flay the Ignoble — I knew that this one was pushed. I think your suggestion to weaken the nobility trigger is a good one.
Weight of Failure — there is some tension in the set with the removal because all the mechanics involve creatures so I don’t want to make the removal too weak and have the creatures run rampant and lead to snowballed games nor do I want to have the removal be too strong and no one gets to develop their synergies. My solution so far has been to make one weaker and one stronger removal spell in the Mardu colors, but I am still tinkering with the balance. I think the graveyard based variant you suggested is a good idea but doesn’t feel right at common due to the tracking and cascading death issues.
Trawl the Catacombs — I like the idea to combine this with Withering Blight. Do you think this is too impactful at common?
Ward of Undeath — this is definitely a step up from Mark of the Vampire, I agree. How do you feel about 2B +1/+1 (and the rest the same)?
OVERALL BLACK: you are right that I played up the graveyard and +1/+1 counter themes too much. I should tone them down and bit and make room for the other themes. Great feedback?
Angrath's Brawler — I want to have one vanilla chivalry creature at common in each color to minimize complexity so I like keeping it free of other text. How do you feel about a 2RR 3/2 chivalry 2?
Stormkin Summoner — I changed this to rummage on attack with the same “Steroids” condition. Thoughts?
SaffronOlive Elemental: your name is on-point! I agree that this needs to be nerfed slightly. Do you like P/T 1/3 or 2/2 better?
Seductive Larceny — I wanted to make an weaker (more expensive) threaten effect because it is quite strong with chivalry so tacking on the gold is mostly to match the flavor and justify the cost increase.
Appeal to the Crowd — I think this has a lot more utility as an instant so if it is too efficient I can increase the cost to 1R.
Bring Low — I think you make a good point about it not doing enough damage with counters. I like it at 2RR deal 4 damage and 7 if +1/+1 counters.
Tireless Search — i added the sacrifice a land to mitigate the issue these cards have when topdecked in the late game. I wouldn’t expect the land to be sacked in the early game.
Tavern Brawl — Excellent point. I shaved it down to +3/+3.
OVERALL RED: great suggestion about the rummage creature.
GREEN:
Questing Treefolk — I think the creature surge RG Archetype you thought of is perfect! Awesome idea!
Deadseed Reclaimer — I think you are right that this is uncommon.
Lumbering Orchard — according to the mechanical color pie "Green bounces creatures as a cost for playing bigger creatures". Several green cards have extended that to permanent, but changing it to creature is probably okay too. I want this effect to enable the UG Archetype in green so I am not too keen to change it.
Fieldtiller Wurm — I know this is pushed. How do you feel about P/T 7/7 —> 6/6 at the same cost?
Mulch — good point about the nonbo...I definitely have to change this even though the flavor is so good.
OVERALL GREEN: I definitely need to reduce the amount of token makers and concentrate some evasion at lower mana costs, as you suggested. Great insights!
COLORLESS:
Tablet of the GRAIL — yeah this is definitely not a common, Will Remove.
Holdout Settlement — I like having this in the set because the flavor is good and mostly because it effectively taps for 2 mana with Labor. That might be too good for common, and it might need to be upshifted to rarity.
OVERALL SET:
1. I have about 50% of the illustrations so far, but the main reason is that I design best when I have a clear flavor concept to work with.
2. I am going to switch back to Treasure for that reason.
3. I agree that quest is the key part of the set. I am still tinkering with some variants on the reward system. I agree that a treasure is lackluster compared to a card draw but I don’t think I want them all to be equal. Something to optimize during playtesting.
4. Good point about energy. I am going to find a way to make a common card that interacts with counters as you suggested.
5. Your idea for the GB Archetype is interesting. I will have to see how much design space there is at common.
6. You are right that I made some archetypes too loud. I will certainly adjust these based on your input.
7. I am still trying to find a good flavor to color pie treatment for the set like Eldraine did.
8. I really like your idea about dipping into questing/rpg tropes! I think this will be really fruitful. I will just have to be really careful to avoid stepping on Zendikar's toes but that shouldn’t be too hard since the settings are so different.
9. Right now the grail is an Urza Artifact he hid on the plane. I still have to define this more.
Thanks a million for your feedback! You really provided a million valuable insights!
I am not familiar with Dumaran...what parts were similar?
• Crusading Chevalier: To me a first striker that can get itself multiple +1/+1 counters might just be a concept for an uncommon actually. I think the solution is probably to switch the keyword to Vigilance, and put first strike on Village Watchman for instance (with the fitting stats adjustments).
• Aspiring Adventurer: In my opinion, it's similar how Scythe Leopard is an uncommon while Snapping Gnarlid is a common, or how in the GDS2 Ethan Fleischer got points for putting a 1/1 for 1 with Evolve at uncommon but a 2/2 for 2 at common (look at TML's comment on "Eohippus"). A 1/1 for 1 that has the opportunity to grow is just better as a 2/2 for 2 at common, just to allow more time for the opponent to adjust. That said, both Evolve and Landfall are very easy to trigger, even multiple times per turn in the right deck, so it might still be ok with quest. But this common will restrain what you can and cannot do later in set design with quest, I'm not sure it's worth the constraint.
• Crusading Messenger: It's still a bit scary (it could very literally win the game by itself between the growing damage in the air and the quest value each turn) but much less than if you can drop this on turn 2 and snowball from there.
• Mill Build-Around: I'm looking at previous common mill cards and it does feel a bit out of place. It's not impossible for an instant/sorcery to mill a huge chunk of the library (E.g. Mind Sculpt from M15), but usually you either see one-shot riders or permanent cards that trigger whenever you do something in-theme with the set. I suppose the new version you're proposing kind of works like a permanent with "whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, mill 1" except you mill all the cards in one go. Spellslinger is not really an archetype in your set though, at common at least. If I work my way bottom-up from the themes of you set, I would probably make a card (creature or enchantment) that mills whenever you do tap/untap shenanigans to synergise with the Labour/Chivalry theme.
E.g:
Windmill Job
1U
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant permanent you control
Whenever enchanted permanent becomes tapped or untapped, target player put the top card of their library into their graveyard.
P.S: Yes, there's definitely an infinite combo with this somewhere xD Basically, tapping the permanent (let's say a land tapping for mana or a creature attacking) mills 2 each turn thanks to the untap step, but you can get fancy and mill more than that by comboing with Chivalry and Labor.
• Weight of Inadequacy: Claustrophobia seems particularly fitting for your set since you have a lot of tap/untap shenanigans.
• Weight of Failure & Trawl the Catacombs: Let's see, we would get this:
Heavy Trawl of the Catacombs Failure
3B
Sorcery
All creatures get -1/-1 until end of turn.
For each creature card in your graveyard, target opponent loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.
Nausea is worth 2 mana and a half, draining 3 life is worth 2 mana and a half as well (wow this effect scales very quickly in mana, draining 4 life is worth like 3 mana and a half). So yeap, this would be too strong, but mostly because of the Trawl of the Catacombs effect that I strongly underestimated apparently. I simply don't think you're supposed to have this effect at common (which is probably why Loleth Giant is a 7 mana uncommon now that I think about it). My best guess is not to over-complicate your commons and just go with something like Nausea + drain 3 life for 4 mana. Another, more reasonable, option would be "Whenever a nontoken creature dies this turn, each opponent loses 1 life and you gain 1 life." But it can still go over 4 life pretty consistently and I don't think common is supposed to do that.
• Ward of the Undeath: Seems more reasonable with those stats, cards like Gifts of Orzhova and Squire's Devotion seem to cost the +1/+1 lifelink effect at 2.5 mana, so the recuperate effect seems to fit nicely now.
• Angrath's Brawler: I like it much better, 3/2 for 4 is unexciting but possible for red, while 5/4 for 4 is just slightly above curve which is exactly where you'd want to be.
• Stormkin Summoner: I think the rummaging is much better, it's still very powerful but not as agressive. The stats should probably be pumped a bit now that it doesn't have its 3/1 haste on attack.
• SaffronOlive Elemental: Since it doesn't give you any value like a Burning Prophet does, I think you can go with 2/2. It's a base 3/2 for 3 in red which is completely fine with the downside of having -1/-0 on defense but the upside of growing when you draw otherwise.
• Fieldtiller Wurm: Let's see, it's very similar to Siege Wurm and basically takes the same slot in the set. Considering that Daunt is comparable to Trample, maybe slightly less effective, and that Labor is much harder to use than Convoke, I think that 6/6 would be balanced but you should definitely playtest this to make sure.
• Holdout Settlement: Ah I didn't think of the Labour combo, I actually like it lot now. But I would replace Mana Geode with a worst stone that makes colorless mana in this case. Otherwise the set at common has Evolving Wilds + Holdout Settlement + Mana Geode + Treasure tokens, you risk having a multicolour soup happening.
• About Quest: Drawing a card is nice, and I think Scry 2 actually pulls a lot of weight and makes the play experience more fun for everyone. Really it's the Treasure I'm having doubt on. I haven't playtested the mechanic so it's entirely possible that I'm wrong and getting one Treasure is just fine. If not, I would consider playtesting a version that makes two treasures. Worst case scenario it's broken and you go back.
•Random thought on the Quest cycle: Your cycle of creatures that quest as a Saboteur trigger seems to create a lot of issues. First it's a cycle of five cards where each one is sufficient to get an alternative win condition at common, but mostly it's the +1/+1 counter each turn that can go out of control, especially with how it synergises with some of the better keywords like First Strike or Flying. I think it would be much less problematic as a Renown-Like mechanic that only works once. Then, you can make a couple of repeatable questers in the colour combination that actively tires to take advantage of the Quest mechanic.
E.g.
Crusading Chevalier
2W
Creature - Human Knight
2/2
First strike
When this creature deals combat damage to a player, it it doesn't have a +1/+1 counter on it, it quests.
P.S.: This also allows some reset shenanigans if you implement some cards that use +1/+1 counters in the BG archetype.