Just gonna pop in real quick and note that the mystery booster playtest cards called these sorts of tokens token cards to signal to players that these cards were allowed to exist in zones other than the battlefield.
Edit: Whoop can't read. This was mentioned earlier.
I feel like there would be less confusion if all tokens that are permanents were put onto the battlefield, and instant and sorcery tokens were put into your hand. I do like the idea of putting creature tokens into the hand, but I think that creating creature tokens and putting them in two different zones would cause some confusion.
On UB:
I originally thought of putting a certain number of cards into your hand because UB has a bunch of ways to do that. However, I do like the idea of having a certain number of cards in your hand. Sometimes, I feel like 7 cards is a lot, but it might be doable with all the ways that UB can add cards to your hand.
That phoenix seems pretty cool too. I could see something like that.
One other thing:
I have been wanting this to be a space-fantasy set, but after a bit of thinking, I think that I wouldn't mind a sprinkle of sci-fi in this. I still don't want a bunch of astronauts floating around, but I think that a small bit of a technological touch wouldn't hurt (Maybe some technologically advanced race or just some robots).
So, I think that Token Spells are going to be a major part of this set, but I feel like there isn't much else yet
I like the Starshape idea where you can cast a creature as a noncreature enchantment, but because of possible flicker effects, I feel like this would be similar to the Ornithopter+Ensoul Artifact, but with a bunch of other possibilities.
Maybe instead of Starshape, some Astrals could be modal double-faced cards? The very large ones could be creature/lands or creature/nonpermanent spells, since there are very few land flicker effects, and the smaller ones could be creature/enchantments since it wouldn't be as bad to flicker them into creatures.
Another option for this would be to have Astrals as the backside of these MDFCs. The only problem with this would be that there would be a bunch of cards that are similar to the new Tibalt being able to be cast with effects like cascade.
I like the first option I suggested because I don't remember any recent land-flicker effects in standard, and smaller Astrals being flickered wouldn't be a problem. I might be paranoid about flicker effects, but after seeing a few videos on the shenanigans you can pull off with the new Tibalt and Tibalt's trickery, I just don't want to make a whole mechanic that allows shenanigans similar to those two cards.
I was reading your paragraph on the level of sci-fi you want in your set and it got me thinking. One important aspect about your set that will determine the themes and mechanics — that you have to worry about unlike WOTC — is going to be the available illustrations. You're going to need a lot of illustrations so before committing to a theme for a custom set, it's always a good idea to see if there are enough illustrations available for that theme. For instance, if you only find a handful of illustrations that fit what you have in mind for an Astral creature, they won't realistically be an option for a main mechanic in the set.
Doing that search will also help to define the feel of the set, which can then orient the mechanics. Also, looking at a bunch of images that could fit your set will probably makes you think of other related themes you didn't think of at first by jumping from keyword to keyword while searching, and you're more likely to find common themes you wouldn't have thought of at first. It happened to me a lot while looking for illustrations on Rezatta at the beginning. The whole life theme was originally supposed to be flavoured as emotions, until I realised it was way harder than I anticipated to find good illustrations of emotions. In the same way, looking at illustrations that fit the tone I wanted for the set made me realise butterflies were a common feature in a lot of those illustrations. I would never have thought of that spontaneously, but it got me searching for the keyword butterfly and yielded many more good illustrations! x)
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If you think you're liking the token spell idea, then my best advice is to start from there and start making *A LOT* of cards exploring this concept. Don't start on another mechanic that's unrelated yet, by producing a ton of designs with token spells, you're likely to discover themes that have a lot of design space, which will inform the other mechanics you should make so your set feels synergistic. Note that, when doing this, you don't want to be making actual cards with an illustration, a name etc. Just post like twenty text-only cards with no names to get a feel of the design space.
I'll start with some random concepts:
- Whenever you cast a token spell, effect. - For each token card in your hand, effect. - As long as you have a token card in your hand, effect. - Copy target token card in your hand. - Token spells you control cost N less to cast. - Target opponent reveals their hand. You choose an instant or sorcery card from it. That player discards that card. Create a token card that's a copy of that card and put it in your hand. - Counter target instant or sorcery spell. Create a token card that's a copy of that card and put it in your hand. - Whenever you cast a nontoken instant or sorcery spell for the first time each turn, create a token card that's a copy of that spell and put it in your hand. - When you cast this spell, create a token card that's a copy of that spell and put it in your hand. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step. - Reveal an instant or sorcery card from your hand. Create X token card that are copies of that card and put them into your hand. - Create X colorless sorcery token cards named Remorse that cost 3 with "You lose 3 life. Whenever you discard this card, you lose 6 life" and put them into target opponent's hand. - At the beginning of your upkeep, create a [token card] and put it into your hand. - Whenever CARDNAME deals combat damage to a player, create a [token card] and put it into your hand. - Whenever CARDNAME enters the battlfield / dies, create a [token card] and put it into your hand. - COST, Discard an instant or sorcery card: Create a [token card] and put it into your hand. - Whenever you mill an instant or sorcery card, create a token card that's a copy of that card and put it in your hand.
Are you going for the version that defines the card through name only? If so, you're going to need to use existing cards, or add a nontoken version of each token card in your set, which will limit you in creating somewhat playable tokens (and I don't think 0-mana instant with "Add G" would cut it).
Oh, so the reminder text would mean that there is a nontoken version that exists? Ok, I'll word cards like how you worded Fumsk from now on.
About the art, I just used a placeholder because I don't have much art quite yet. I did do some digging for art yesterday, but I probably only got around 15 pieces of art. Also, didn't you recommend making text-only cards for now? I don't mind using images on these cards, but the art used will probably be used in the final product.
Yeah, reminder text doesn't bear any rules baggage, everything that's italicised on the card basically doesn't exist. They're just notes. The name of a card can bear all its properties if you want, but you'd need to be able to look up the name on the Gatherer (here we pretend the cards from your set would be in the Gatherer as well) and find out what the card does. If you don't use the name of an existing card to create the token, then you need to define all its properties. The reminder text cannot define something that doesn't exist, it's just here to remind you what the already existing card does.
Text-only cards are fine when you're making a lot of concept cards to explore design space, yeah ^^ But searching for illustrations will inform you if you're going to be able to actually make cards about a theme in the end. For instance, you might realise that all illustrations of meteorites are very similar, so planning to have a meteorite mechanic with 20 cards supporting it in the set might be a problem later on if they all have a same-ish picture of a rock floating in space on them.
One thing that came to mind with the token spells was that I was reminded of someone who's working on a Food set who makes copies of card into your hard. Probably not super helpful design for this set, but I figured I'd share.
I think I found a possible planeswalker for this set:
Not sure what their thing would be, but I think they could make an interesting planeswalker.
Note: I was just looking for art, and even though I have come across this before, I think this would be perfect for some planeswalker. Of course, I don't want to force them, but I think they would fit really well.
@Red_Tower I have considered using some adventure text box for cards that create token spells, but I think that I'm not going to use it because any mythics that use token spells won't really have any space for possible interactions with the tokens that they create.
One of my ideas didn't have much space with the smaller form of text, so I'm not sure that there would be enough space with an adventure text box.
Also, I'm feeling like the plane might need a name change. I named it by literally typing random letters on the keyboard, and I feel like maybe I should make it look like an actual word.
@WarriorCatInAhat Could be that. When I think of the name Innistrad, I almost think of the word sinister, which is kinda the feel of Innistrad (evil zombies, werewolves, etc.). Maybe the name of the plane could do something like that, but with its own themes...
I've only used Google and Artstation for searches (some images have led to Deviantart, but I haven't searched on that website yet). On Google, I have mostly searched up stuff like "space fantasy art", and on Artstation, I have just searched "space" or "star", and turned on the fantasy filter.
There's probably a better way for me to search, and there's other stuff that I will eventually need to search for, but that's how I've searched for art so far.
I think a really important thing here is to really start by focusing on the design of the set from either a bottom-up or top-down focus. Since you don't seem to have a specific mechanical identity or exploration in mind like "lands matter" or "multicolor pairs" and with the amount of discussion the flavor theme of the set, this seems to be firmly a top-down design.
So, the idea behind token spells was that they are power drawn from the stars, moons, and other celestial bodies. I do think that token spells do give that "drawing power from the partially unknown" feeling (since we know of other planets, but a lot about them is still a mystery to us), but maybe there could be some other aspect that gives these token spells the push they need to have that mystery feeling.
Looking at how much art I have right now, it's all mostly astrals, and probably a few other cards at this point. I'm thinking that maybe it would be fine to have some aspect of the set based on artifacts, but not make the whole set based around sci-fi robots and such. Thematically, I'm thinking of stuff like this, where it doesn't have to scream space, but you could believe that it's part of something space-related.
I'm very much on the side of Red-Tower about the token spells, by the way. I think using an adventure card frame is the cleanest way to do this as finding the information about the spell in text form is tedious and extra-wordy. And I don't think it's a good excuse to have all your cards including commons be harder to read just so you can make super wordy Mythics, for the record XD Super wordy is something to be avoided as much as possible, so I wouldn't plan around that from the start, it will force you to be concise, which is good. That Mythic you gave as an example doesn't need to be as wordy, for instance.
In a vacuum, I would like to temper what they said about being top-down and bottom-up though. When you read about the development of actual MTG sets, those two aspects fuse very early and MaRo himself said your goal should be that, at the end, you shouldn't be able to tell for sure where the set started because you have a great flavour with a great mechanic core. That's especially true with top-down sets, the main flavour idea is going to inform your mechanical core, and that's what's really going to guide your set skeleton, you don't create mechanics based solely on their flavour (see my example on the Drink Beer! mechanic in Kaldheim), they need to answer a mechanical need. Think how the Gothic horror theme of Innistrad gave birth to the five tribes, which were the actual base for building the set.
That being said, I will repeat what I said earlier that I don't get a space vibe from the token spells so far. Maybe they will feel space-y with the right effects and flavouring, but so far I'm getting some strong arcane magic vibe and if you ask me to guess in which set this mechanic would debute I would probably answer Strixhaven. So, if you're really going all-in on the token spells, it's a good idea to stay open on the idea of going bottom-up indeed and even keep the option of finding a better suited flavour than space later in the process.
Thinking about how much trouble I've had with trying to come up with good mechanical cohesion for this set, and how hard it has been to find artwork that works with my themes, I'm thinking that maybe a space-themed set isn't one I really want to make. I don't want to say that I'm giving up, because I don't mind continuing, but maybe I should try to make a different set, and return to the idea of a space set later.
If I should try something else, I have an idea for a top-down set, and a bottom-up set. The top-down set would have at least some music-theme in it, however, I wouldn't want to possibly step into Rezatta territory. The bottom-up idea would play with desert lands, and maybe create something similar to snow lands.
But, if this should continue, I do have an idea for a mechanic, but it would involve outside of the game shenanigans.
I think one of your major obstacles with this set's theme is trying to make a clear distinction between sci-fi and space fantasy. The line between them has blurred a lot over the years too thanks to stuff like Star Wars. The other problem with it unfortunately is finding enough art that can serve to reinforce that theme without drifting off into sci-fi too much.
I think it is a possible thing to do, and there may even be enough workable art for it with enough time spent searching, but not being able to identify a mechanical core from that theme right now does seem to be the extra nail in the coffin at the moment. It may be best to take a step back for now and return to it later when you have a clearer picture and haven't been actively thinking about it and submerged in it.
It does feel like I have been running in circles for this, where nothing has really clicked perfectly. I think that I'll leave it for now and try something else.
I have a list that includes both top-down and bottom-up ideas, so I think I'm going to create a new discussion to consider which one seems best.
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Edit: Whoop can't read. This was mentioned earlier.
I feel like there would be less confusion if all tokens that are permanents were put onto the battlefield, and instant and sorcery tokens were put into your hand. I do like the idea of putting creature tokens into the hand, but I think that creating creature tokens and putting them in two different zones would cause some confusion.
On UB:
I originally thought of putting a certain number of cards into your hand because UB has a bunch of ways to do that. However, I do like the idea of having a certain number of cards in your hand. Sometimes, I feel like 7 cards is a lot, but it might be doable with all the ways that UB can add cards to your hand.
That phoenix seems pretty cool too. I could see something like that.
One other thing:
I have been wanting this to be a space-fantasy set, but after a bit of thinking, I think that I wouldn't mind a sprinkle of sci-fi in this. I still don't want a bunch of astronauts floating around, but I think that a small bit of a technological touch wouldn't hurt (Maybe some technologically advanced race or just some robots).
I like the Starshape idea where you can cast a creature as a noncreature enchantment, but because of possible flicker effects, I feel like this would be similar to the Ornithopter+Ensoul Artifact, but with a bunch of other possibilities.
Maybe instead of Starshape, some Astrals could be modal double-faced cards? The very large ones could be creature/lands or creature/nonpermanent spells, since there are very few land flicker effects, and the smaller ones could be creature/enchantments since it wouldn't be as bad to flicker them into creatures.
Another option for this would be to have Astrals as the backside of these MDFCs. The only problem with this would be that there would be a bunch of cards that are similar to the new Tibalt being able to be cast with effects like cascade.
I like the first option I suggested because I don't remember any recent land-flicker effects in standard, and smaller Astrals being flickered wouldn't be a problem. I might be paranoid about flicker effects, but after seeing a few videos on the shenanigans you can pull off with the new Tibalt and Tibalt's trickery, I just don't want to make a whole mechanic that allows shenanigans similar to those two cards.
Doing that search will also help to define the feel of the set, which can then orient the mechanics. Also, looking at a bunch of images that could fit your set will probably makes you think of other related themes you didn't think of at first by jumping from keyword to keyword while searching, and you're more likely to find common themes you wouldn't have thought of at first. It happened to me a lot while looking for illustrations on Rezatta at the beginning. The whole life theme was originally supposed to be flavoured as emotions, until I realised it was way harder than I anticipated to find good illustrations of emotions. In the same way, looking at illustrations that fit the tone I wanted for the set made me realise butterflies were a common feature in a lot of those illustrations. I would never have thought of that spontaneously, but it got me searching for the keyword butterfly and yielded many more good illustrations! x)
___
If you think you're liking the token spell idea, then my best advice is to start from there and start making *A LOT* of cards exploring this concept. Don't start on another mechanic that's unrelated yet, by producing a ton of designs with token spells, you're likely to discover themes that have a lot of design space, which will inform the other mechanics you should make so your set feels synergistic. Note that, when doing this, you don't want to be making actual cards with an illustration, a name etc. Just post like twenty text-only cards with no names to get a feel of the design space.
I'll start with some random concepts:
- Whenever you cast a token spell, effect.
- For each token card in your hand, effect.
- As long as you have a token card in your hand, effect.
- Copy target token card in your hand.
- Token spells you control cost N less to cast.
- Target opponent reveals their hand. You choose an instant or sorcery card from it. That player discards that card. Create a token card that's a copy of that card and put it in your hand.
- Counter target instant or sorcery spell. Create a token card that's a copy of that card and put it in your hand.
- Whenever you cast a nontoken instant or sorcery spell for the first time each turn, create a token card that's a copy of that spell and put it in your hand.
- When you cast this spell, create a token card that's a copy of that spell and put it in your hand. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step.
- Reveal an instant or sorcery card from your hand. Create X token card that are copies of that card and put them into your hand.
- Create X colorless sorcery token cards named Remorse that cost 3 with "You lose 3 life. Whenever you discard this card, you lose 6 life" and put them into target opponent's hand.
- At the beginning of your upkeep, create a [token card] and put it into your hand.
- Whenever CARDNAME deals combat damage to a player, create a [token card] and put it into your hand.
- Whenever CARDNAME enters the battlfield / dies, create a [token card] and put it into your hand.
- COST, Discard an instant or sorcery card: Create a [token card] and put it into your hand.
- Whenever you mill an instant or sorcery card, create a token card that's a copy of that card and put it in your hand.
Are you going for the version that defines the card through name only? If so, you're going to need to use existing cards, or add a nontoken version of each token card in your set, which will limit you in creating somewhat playable tokens (and I don't think 0-mana instant with "Add G" would cut it).
About the art, I just used a placeholder because I don't have much art quite yet. I did do some digging for art yesterday, but I probably only got around 15 pieces of art. Also, didn't you recommend making text-only cards for now? I don't mind using images on these cards, but the art used will probably be used in the final product.
Text-only cards are fine when you're making a lot of concept cards to explore design space, yeah ^^ But searching for illustrations will inform you if you're going to be able to actually make cards about a theme in the end. For instance, you might realise that all illustrations of meteorites are very similar, so planning to have a meteorite mechanic with 20 cards supporting it in the set might be a problem later on if they all have a same-ish picture of a rock floating in space on them.
I remade a few of the cards I made yesterday as well:
Doubt this should be a keyword, but I'll post this one anyway (Maybe the exile at the end of the turn wouldn't be necessary if the mana cost is high):
Not sure what their thing would be, but I think they could make an interesting planeswalker.
Note: I was just looking for art, and even though I have come across this before, I think this would be perfect for some planeswalker. Of course, I don't want to force them, but I think they would fit really well.
One of my ideas didn't have much space with the smaller form of text, so I'm not sure that there would be enough space with an adventure text box.
cosmic plane backwards
yes I know it's a terrible idea
it's sort of scifi-y, right?
like what do you search in google/deviantart/whatever
There's probably a better way for me to search, and there's other stuff that I will eventually need to search for, but that's how I've searched for art so far.
I think this Nuts & Bolts article from Rosewater would do a better job of getting into the details and focus than I can right now: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/nuts-bolts-10-creative-elements-2018-03-26
Looking at how much art I have right now, it's all mostly astrals, and probably a few other cards at this point. I'm thinking that maybe it would be fine to have some aspect of the set based on artifacts, but not make the whole set based around sci-fi robots and such. Thematically, I'm thinking of stuff like this, where it doesn't have to scream space, but you could believe that it's part of something space-related.
In a vacuum, I would like to temper what they said about being top-down and bottom-up though. When you read about the development of actual MTG sets, those two aspects fuse very early and MaRo himself said your goal should be that, at the end, you shouldn't be able to tell for sure where the set started because you have a great flavour with a great mechanic core. That's especially true with top-down sets, the main flavour idea is going to inform your mechanical core, and that's what's really going to guide your set skeleton, you don't create mechanics based solely on their flavour (see my example on the Drink Beer! mechanic in Kaldheim), they need to answer a mechanical need. Think how the Gothic horror theme of Innistrad gave birth to the five tribes, which were the actual base for building the set.
That being said, I will repeat what I said earlier that I don't get a space vibe from the token spells so far. Maybe they will feel space-y with the right effects and flavouring, but so far I'm getting some strong arcane magic vibe and if you ask me to guess in which set this mechanic would debute I would probably answer Strixhaven. So, if you're really going all-in on the token spells, it's a good idea to stay open on the idea of going bottom-up indeed and even keep the option of finding a better suited flavour than space later in the process.
If I should try something else, I have an idea for a top-down set, and a bottom-up set. The top-down set would have at least some music-theme in it, however, I wouldn't want to possibly step into Rezatta territory. The bottom-up idea would play with desert lands, and maybe create something similar to snow lands.
But, if this should continue, I do have an idea for a mechanic, but it would involve outside of the game shenanigans.
I think it is a possible thing to do, and there may even be enough workable art for it with enough time spent searching, but not being able to identify a mechanical core from that theme right now does seem to be the extra nail in the coffin at the moment. It may be best to take a step back for now and return to it later when you have a clearer picture and haven't been actively thinking about it and submerged in it.
I have a list that includes both top-down and bottom-up ideas, so I think I'm going to create a new discussion to consider which one seems best.