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No.1 Cardsmith Challenge 4
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By the same argument of "it's broken because there's a combo:"
Turn 1: Lab, Tap, Get a Counter (Total, 1)
Turn 2: Forest, Tap Forest, Elvish Mystic, Tap Lab, Get a Counter (Total 2)
Turn 3: Island, Tap Forest, Island, and Mystic, Vorel of the Hull Clade, Tap Lab, Get a Counter (Total 3)
Turn 4: Isalnd, Tap Lab, Get a Counter (Total 4), Tap Isalnd and Forest, Tap Vorel, Double the number of counters on the Lab (Total 8).
Turn 5 (Here's where things go off): Forest, Tap Island and Forest, Tap Vorel, Double the number of counters on the Lab (Total 16, literally the highest CMC of any creature in magic). Tap Lab, sacrifice Lab, get literally any creature you could ever want (assuming it's in your library) on turn 5 FOR FREE... AND still be able to play any number of spells that cost a total of 3 mana.
I mean sure the land only works once, but I can get literally anything on Turn 5 for free using only the land, a green mana dork, and Vorel of the Hull Clade. Then I can just play another Laboratory and repeat the cycle.
The argument "with the right combo this card is op" is very weak. One great aspect of MTG is finding and playing combos in your deck. So with this argument nearly every card is op.
BTW I can build you a deck that wins average in T3*. So T5 is rather slow and you can always bomb away the land, the creature it fetches, or the combo card
Also the expensive creatures usually have no haste so the attack in T6 and don't win a game by then. So your opponent has seven turns to think of an answer or win the game himself
*If you want to know the T3-win deck PM me
Wait, your argument makes no sense. "Dark depths has a combo so therefore it's broken, but my land has a combo and it's not broken."
Plus, we're talking about a land, a 0 mana permanent that can't be countered and is generally difficult to destroy, that can get a creature from the library and have it enter the battlefield unconditionally with no chance for your opponent to counter or stop it, and all you have to do is tap it. Dark depth's combo needed a way to generate mana to go into the ice counter removal spell. This just builds up on its own one way or another, combo or not, meaning virtually every deck would run it just to cheat out a creature late game (at instant speed as well, mind you), which makes it too format-defining and thus too powerful.
That's why I discuss the entries with others: to distract myself from the hype! =D
If you really did not understand what I meant, here it is:
My first argument was, that you cannot say, my card is broken, when it is the same power level as Dark depths. And dark depths is not OP, else everybody would build a deck around it.
My second argument was, that a lot of cards can be part of a strong combo. But that doesn't make them op. So your argument was invalid. Try find a new one.
I also think it is kind of unfair to critizise the other cards if you are still participant! You are far away from a fair sportsman! Also who are you to decry other entries? Try to win with better cards and not bad behavior!
First:
I would like to remind you that Dark Depths was strong enough to get BANNED in modern, so there must have been some kind of power level issue there, meaning that you're saying "my card is as powerful as a card banned in modern, so therefore its not too powerful," which contradicts itself. (And I quote, "My first argument was, that you cannot say, my card is broken, when it is the same power level as Dark depths.")
Second:
The only format this really isn't going to see play in the vast majority of decks in is Modern, where Aether Vial is just slightly better. The sheer consistency this card brings is so strong. In standard, this can be used in delerium to get Grim Flayer nearly every game early game (because you'll either see the Flayer or this) or Ishkana later. Not only that, but if this hits flayer turn 3, you still get a 2 drop that turn as well. Heck, even in modern, this could possibly be seen in mono red aggro as a means of ensuring 2 Goblin Guides on turn 2. However, the real place this would be too powerful is EDH. In EDH, this can be used to consistently fetch cheaper creatures that are used in your EDH combos, not to mention what this thing could do in the late game in decks like Atraxa and Vorel.
Third:
This thing would probably shoot up to like $20-$25 apiece if it was successful in that standard delerium deck, so that means any deck in any format that wants a playset of this automatically goes up by $100. By comparison, Polluted Delta was around $20 apiece and we all know how its time in standard went.
Also, for the record, in my original list of criticisms, I openly invited people to criticize my entry. If you would wish to do so, I invite it! If you think my cards aren't good, tell me why. Personally I believe that criticism and discussion is a great way to develop and check cards.
First:
You are right, I expressed myself wrongly. I didn't want to say that my land and Dark Depths have the same power level, but you can compare them. Dark Depths is stronger, because with the Vampire Hex Mage you can get a 20/20 flying trample in T3. With my card you can get a Emrakul (as you have shown) in T5. But in T1 - 4 your only blocker is a elf druid (because Vorel should survive to fulfill his task). It really dosen't convince me, that my card should be overpowered, when it forces you to do nothing for 5 turns.
Second:
So you say AEther Vial is better, but my card is op?
Third:
In mono red you need you mountains to cast early spells. I think you would waste time and mana if you fetch the goblin guides in T2 also you lose the chance to drop a gobbo in T1.
Criticism in generel is a very very very good thing! I have never questioned it (why do you always try to pervert the facts? Are you some kind of wannabe lawyer?) Maybe you should read again my entry.
• @Tutlaschk, I am sorry to say, but your Laboratory is a bit powerful. Consider it to be able to tutor a Delver or Deathrite Shaman T2 in addition to playing something else. What about having it be able to look at the top 5 cards of your library, instead of going through your entire library?
• @Arceus8523, to put it frankly, please stop being a jerk. It is one thing to call something overpowered (which I agree it is), but something completely different if it is the only point you focus on. Try addressing the problem with an answer, instead of making the problem bigger. I understand you are trying to prove your point, but just know that others may not.
XD
- Yes, @Tutlaschk's land is overpowered. That said, it is also very ncie design, although perhaps it would be better suited to a creature/artifact? x) But you don't have to focus on it so much, especially not in this thread. Perhaps it would have been better to discuss it in a PM or on disqus? ^^ This is a contest after all.
Believe me, I used to be the biggest jerk on the whole of cardsmith until recently XD I still give criticism on people's cards, but I now *try* to give it politely (perhaps it making two birds instead of three would be better?), or give the 'criticism sandwich' (I like the artwork, but it still seems a bit OP - creating three bird tokens? That said, I think it seems super cool/original!) instead of the all out war kind of attack (for the love of God this card is OP! Creating three bird tokens?!?). I'm not saying you did this, I'm just saying it's important to think about how you say things. I think I've really cleaned up my act now (at least a bit... XD).
I also agree completely with @Gelectrode - when I point out a card's flaws, if I was to write paragraphs on it, I'm sure I wouldn't keep on talking about how OP it is. I don't think you've said anything positive about it/made any other point about how it's overpowered...
I like said in my original post that I liked the flavor and the only reason I haven't said anything else about good it is because I've been debating the power of the card and trying to explain my argument. I wasn't trying to be a jerk or anything, I was just elaborating because as per the typical style of debate, I was attempting to acknowledge his arguments and present my own.
While I'm here, I would also like to acknowledge that @Tutlaschk 's other land, Exava's Cauldron of Blood, is much more balanced and perfectly fitting of a legendary land. I really like the idea of being able to have unleash on a stick as the cost of two life. It fits perfectly on flavor!
That's the only reason I brought any critiques up. I was seeing a common theme in the power level of the lands being too high coming from Cardsmiths who I knew could come create balanced and awesome cards. Some cardsmiths, like @Tutlaschk even proved they could do it within another entry.
Overall, I apologize for anyone who i might have offended with my critiques, and I wasn't trying to make anyone look bad. I was just bringing them up out of concern.
HYPE!!!
Srsly tho RIP me. There's no way I can stay in this competition - I don't even know how I've got this far.
SO RESULTS ARE:
THOSE GETTING DQ'd
@Lujikul
@IanLowenthal
@TheFriendlyGeek
@MaverickGV
@Arceus8523
Top Cards:
@thenightbringer Seeds of Trefling
@kltmtg29 Valley of Kings
@TastyCheez Crystadel
@Corwinn Heaven's Passage
Bottom Cardsmiths:
@dashdo101
@TrippleBoggey
@Faiths_Guide
Congrats to those who have made it through to the top 10. The final round will be posted in the next coming days. BE READY AS THIS NEXT ROUND WILL TAKE SOME TIME.
Unlucky to those who are being DQ'd. Tough decisions did have to be made.
Thanks,
Butters
XD
I guess I'm just in this for fun anywho. Good luck in the upcoming round everyone!