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DOLEBRIA - Four-Color World!
=Dolebria=
Welcome, planeswalkers of the multiverse to Dolerbria! A four-colored world, dominated by five factions. This
set is being designed by me and other members, and has been discussed here. Although we know the world name and know its about four color factions, we know very little about it yet, since I need to discuss it with other members. Oh, and the first set is to be called 'Manaflux' .
Those that are interested currently are: @Lujikul, @Mysterious_Gangsta, @TrippleBoggey3, @TheFriendlyGeek, @unicornsareevil13579, @Tomigon, @littledemon, @fellwynd. If any of you (and others) want to join, PM me and I'll give you the username/password.* We'll use this thread to discuss the ideas we have for the world, not in a PM because other people can give their feedback here.
Mechanics:
Definitely:
Hybrid symbols - {u/w} mana and stuff like that.
Making a four color world is almost certainly going to be a challenge, since it's going to be difficult to make four-color decks possible but also other decks too. This is why hybrid mana is going to be used a lot.
Others...
The set will have 264 cards in it (the exact numbers I'm not sure of). Then, after this set is completed (which will be in quite a long time) the next set will be made, this time of 184 cards.
I think the (basic) outline of the world is that five god-like beings (nephilim) invade, and everybody picks a side as the creatures go to war, but this is up for discussion.
If you have any suggestions/ideas feel free to comment them.
*I reserve the right to refuse anyone, however.
Welcome, planeswalkers of the multiverse to Dolerbria! A four-colored world, dominated by five factions. This
set is being designed by me and other members, and has been discussed here. Although we know the world name and know its about four color factions, we know very little about it yet, since I need to discuss it with other members. Oh, and the first set is to be called 'Manaflux' .
Those that are interested currently are: @Lujikul, @Mysterious_Gangsta, @TrippleBoggey3, @TheFriendlyGeek, @unicornsareevil13579, @Tomigon, @littledemon, @fellwynd. If any of you (and others) want to join, PM me and I'll give you the username/password.* We'll use this thread to discuss the ideas we have for the world, not in a PM because other people can give their feedback here.
Mechanics:
Definitely:
Hybrid symbols - {u/w} mana and stuff like that.
Making a four color world is almost certainly going to be a challenge, since it's going to be difficult to make four-color decks possible but also other decks too. This is why hybrid mana is going to be used a lot.
Others...
The set will have 264 cards in it (the exact numbers I'm not sure of). Then, after this set is completed (which will be in quite a long time) the next set will be made, this time of 184 cards.
I think the (basic) outline of the world is that five god-like beings (nephilim) invade, and everybody picks a side as the creatures go to war, but this is up for discussion.
If you have any suggestions/ideas feel free to comment them.
*I reserve the right to refuse anyone, however.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Could you do 10 factions, with like a 4 color and a 1 color to oppose that 4 color?
We could. What do other people think? When they voted for four-color world, I don't think they were expecting that...
I'm open to ideas tho.
This is also going to require a very strict design skeleton to keep things balanced, and give each archetype a chance to thrive, including dredge. Also, I request some form of mandatory graveyard hate.
If we make more than one would it make sense that the first one "manaflux" be before the gods arrive where the wizards train to attempt to control all five colours etc etc.
And then the second one "manawar" be about the gods arrive (or being accidentally created) and the wizards have to pick sides for war etc etc.
Please think it over.
I think I agree with you.
The first set is when the mages, and I think a planeswalker, try to master all mana. The planeswalker, however, realises it is futile. He finds an immense force beneath the Earth, and tries to coax it from where it is deep, deep, deep, embedded in the world. This force is the nephilim. The last thing in Manaflux is when the nephilim break free and master the four-factions.
The second set is when the Gatewatch arrive. The five-factions are now completely at war.
D'you wanna join the set, btw?
*Raises hands with a sassy confused look*
Ten point to whoever gets the reference
Whiteless: Disorder. Every colour but White is willing to bend or ignore the rules for one reason or another, to prioritise other things above order and structure, and to pursue goals other than peace. Disorder wants to pursue individual goals without hindrances and rejects the trappings of civilised society.
Blueless: Decisiveness. Every colour but Blue is decisive and self-assured, willing to act when they must instead of giving in to reluctance and doubt. Decisiveness wants to pursue its goals swiftly and forcefully, without stopping to second-guess itself or waste time.
Blackless: Altruism. Every colour but Black cares about others in some way, whether individually or collectively, and they do so out of emotion, logic, duty or instinct (Black cares about others only insomuch as they benefit Black). Altruism wants to work together to achieve a common goal and foster cooperation.
Redless: Patience. Every colour but Red is willing to wait for its plans to mature into fruition, to build something that lasts or to execute a plan without a hitch. Patience wants to carefully build elaborate plans and then enact them with flawless timing, allowing time to age the things it likes to perfection.
Greenless: Unnaturalness. Every colour but Green is willing to deal with things that are not natural, whether it is civilisation (White), technology (Blue), undeath (Black) or chaos (Red). Unnaturalness seeks to push the boundaries of the planes, to discover things that don't exist (yet) and even to warp reality itself.
Hope this helps!
I'd recommend moving the warrior clans you have in Decisiveness, not because they don't fit there, but because I think they fit Disorder better (as they seem to have little community/society, and tend to be wary or civilisation, which is White's core concept).
For Decisiveness, I'd recommend a nation of superstition and simplicity, people who are "salt of the earth" and distrust anything too cerebral or technological. Some can be farmers, others can be more primitive still, others can be trained soldiers, and while they can have clerics and shamans, they fear the unknown.
For Altruism, I'd actually recommend an archipelago community that has established peaceful harmony with the land and the sea. Maybe the islands are teeming with life and also volcanic, so while the archipelago has tremendous resources and prosperity, it's difficult to exploit (so cooperation was vital). You can have them fortified in their lands (to follow your previous idea) now that they've figured out a harmonious lifestyle.
For Patience, you could have a nation of necropolises, for who has more patience than the (un)dead? Every colour has undead, even Green (Ghoultree, Howlgeist, Phantom Centaur, Spectral Force, Starved Rusalka, Strangleroot Geist, Wildwood Geist, etc.), so instead of a Grixis-like grimdark place, you can have undead who live in harmony with nature and form a society, but they don't really do anything. They just hoard power and lore and slowly expand their necropolis as they receive more undead from other places, but they rarely do anything of note. However, when they do, it's centuries of plotting coming together flawlessly.
For Unnaturalness, I'd say you can probably do better than a nation of artificers. You can expand the theme and have them live in floating citadels and simply be people who embrace things that aren't natural, whether it's crafting artefacts to necromancy to byzantine law systems to raw chaos magic. You can turn up the weird factor up to eleven and reflect their strange customs and evolving culture, and IMO it'd make the faction a lot more interesting and appealing than rehash of Esper/Kaladesh/Mirrodin.
Here are my faction ideas:
G/U/B/R (Everything but White) Disorder
I was thinking of naming this faction Goroth .
For this faction, I was thinking of having the idea be very similar to the Maelstrom stuff on Alara, although a lot more black - like the commander in C16. I still don't have the most ideas for this one though, so anything would help!
Mechanic idea: Idk. I was thinking about something like cascade though, but dabbling with the grave. Perhaps:
{Mechanic name} N (Exile a card from your graveyard with converted mana cost N or less, then cast it without play its mana cost.)
G/W/B/R (Everything but Blue) Decisiveness
I agree with your idea - the kind of primitive idea that a world without blue lacks. I still some help on this one though..
Mechanic Idea: No idea.
G/W/R/U (Everything but Black) Atruism
Yeah, again, I like my city-type idea, but one that cares much about its community and lives in harmony with the nature/land/sea around it.
Mechanic idea: I've actually got a few. I know I want it to care about other creatures, so:
Idea 1#, by @AustinSmith: Channeling (As this creature enters the battlefield, tap any number of other untapped creatures you control. This creature enters the battlefield with that many +1/+1 counters on it.) We could change this so it puts counters on all the other creatures you've tapped. Then it could become an action keyword.
Idea #2, by me, a kind of 'everyone else helps me' feel: {Mechanic Name} {Card Type} (This card costs {1} less to cast for each {Card type} you control.)
G/W/U/B (Everything but Red) Patience
So, this faction is about death, of course, but with a much more 'good guys' feel of death + life, unlike the Sultai, the Golgari ect.
Mechanic Ideas: There are SO many death related keywords in my head, in other people's, and in the encyclopedia, so I'm just going to list a lot:
Attrition - Whenever you sacrifice this permanent, {EFFECT}. (Not very blue...)
{NAME} {COST} (You may cast this spell for its {NAME} cost if a permanent left the battlefield this turn.)
Or, the Future Sighted: Gravestorm (When you cast this spell, copy it for each permanent put into a graveyard from the battlefield this turn.)
W/U/B/R (Everything but Green) Unnaturalness
For this one, my first idea was actually quite similar to yours. I still think it should be at least partly artifact based, tho. I was thinking having almost the whole world be made out of a special kind of metal with its own form and kind of 'life', if you like, bending and moving to its own will. I also can imagine giant caverns and cairns running beneath the Earth, and the great buildings on platforms in the air kinda stuff.
Mechanic Ideas:
Weld (Each artifact you sacrifice while casting this spell pays for {1}.)
What do you think?
For Goroth: the problem with mechanics that let you exile cards from the graveyard to play for costs is that they make "fire and forget" decks even stronger. It was the main reason Delve was so loathed. For a deck that doesn't do anything with the graveyard, exiling cards from there isn't really significant.
Instead, I'd recommend using a mechanic that represents disorder. Disorder isn't simply chaos or randomness, it's a deliberate defiance of the rules. So I suggest a mechanic that lets this faction ignore one of the rules of the game, especially something that White likes doing. Some ideas for mechanics that deliberate ignore White's rules: "Piercing: Damage dealt by this creature/spell can't be prevented." "Grounded: If this permanent would be exiled, put it into its owner's graveyard instead." "Siegebreaker: This creature can't be blocked by creatures with defender or vigilance." You can even combine some of these together or expand them if they're too niche.
Decisiveness: Well, good anti-blue mechanics are "can't be countered" and split-second, but if you want a custom mechanic, we can try to find something that punishes "doubt", like "Superstitious: This creature enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter if an opponent has 5 or more cards in his or her hand"
Altruism: The problem with putting +1/+1 counters on creatures so easily is that while not as bad as proliferate, it can still get out of hand. I like the second mechanic for racial leaders and especially avatar creatures. You could call it "Succour", as the creatures on the battlefield seek help and are rewarded by a leader and protector.
Patience: I like the idea of interacting with the graveyard, but I think it should evoke the idea of a plan. Sorta like Storm, where you carefully plan out your turn for maximum value. Gravestorm could work, but you'd need to give them board sweepers or mass self sac to set up good gravestorms.
Unnaturalness: Gonna have to reiterate my preference to make it more inclusive and less artefact-focused. :P
I think an interesting way to represent things that are not natural is to use the exile zone. Imagine a mechanic like Morph, where you cast something into exile, but everyone can see what it is, and then you can bring it into the battlefield for an additional cost. And as a caveat to prevent this from being too good, permanents cast this way are exiled for good instead of put into the graveyard.
I'd word it something like "Warpcast {cost} (You may cast [card name] into exile for {4}. At any point, you may have it enter the battlefield for its Warpcast cost. If you cast [card name] this way, whenever if would be put into a graveyard, it is exiled instead.)" And then add a little reminder somewhere that once it gets exiled the second time, it's gone for good.
The reason I prefer this mechanic is that you can add it to artefacts, enchantments, creatures, so it still captures the unnatural/weird feel, but goes beyond just artefacts.
Thoughts?
P.S. The Golgari were all about the cycle of life and death, creation and decay. Not necessarily evil.
Disorder
There are some pretty simple ways to convey disorder through cards, one of which is a pseudo-random mechanic. (Note: "pseudo" is the key word here. Random mechanics are good, if there's a way to control them.)
Ex. Chaos [cost] (You may cast this card for [cost]. If you do, exile the top card of your library. X becomes that card's converted mana cost.)
Decisiveness
While I don't completely agree with WBRG being completely "decisive", it does work. There's some interesting ways to make this come through the cards as well. The main way would be create some mechanic that rewards the player for making decisions, and sticking to them. Put it on some bigger costing spells, and you'd get the mood across easily.
Ex. Decisive -- At the beginning of your end step, if CARDNAME was the last spell you cast this turn, [effect].
Altruism
This is an interesting one, as it directly lends itself to "superfriends" decks. However, there are ways to make this work without putting yourself into this slot. For example, having altruistic cards!
Ex. Selfless N (When this enters the battlefield, you may distribute N +1/+1 counter among creatures you control. If you do, this gets -N/-N.) (Maybe have a variant that gives it defender?)
Patience
If I'm being completely honest, nothing screams patience more than suspend. The problem with suspend is that it's an 8 on the Storm Scale. People didn't like it, and it caused a lot of developmental problems. However, there is an interesting unifying factor among WUBG: they can all exile things. White has Couldshift-like effects, Blue can blink things in and out of existence, Black can exile things from hands, and Green loves to exile artifacts and enchantments. Perhaps something building off of that?
Ex.Emanate - Whenever a permanent enters the battlefield from exile under your control, [effect]. (<-- This could give the sense of having to plan out your moves.)
OR
Ex. <i>Last impression - Whenever you exile a card, [effect].
Unnaturalness
I think a key distinction to be made here is what is "unnatural" to Green isn't exactly what we consider "unnatural". Green sees things like enchantments and (depending on plane) artifacts as unnatural, as well as the order of civilization White brings. If you remove Green, you remove caring about one's relationship to others and nature, and are willing to do things that harm others "for the greater good". I can see a polluted city fitting into this slot really well.
Ex. Ruthless N - [cost] ([cost], sacrifice a creature: If CARDNAME isn't ruthless, put N +1/+1 counter on it, and it becomes ruthless.) (<-- Green doesn't like this type of ruthlessness, and even white and blue can get bad enough to go this far, as long as it serves their higher purpose.)
Also, as a side note, something that may help with designing 4-colors is to break up the fragments into smaller pairs. What I mean is maybe choosing a two color pair from the four, and treating them as the faction's "primary" color, would give more identity to the factions. Even going as far as defining a single color to be the primary would be helpful, and expand design from just "defined by what it doesn't have". If that was confusing, I can always try to explain it better, maybe even make a few small text-only examples.
@touchstone I actually disagree with dividing design into smaller pairs. That works for Commander, but if you want to get at the philosophy behind 4-colour, it necessarily has to be defined by the colour that's absent and what the other 4 all have in common.
I thought about suspend, but then there are so many problems with it, which MaRo is always nattering on about - take how it's confusing for new players, say, or it's 'just too big'.
Last impression seems very abusable, and far too OP. I disagree with your 'Exile mechanic' hypothesis for Patience - pretty much every color can egt exile effects, and I would argue red gets it more than other colors, with many 'exile the top card of your library. You may play it this turn' abilities being made. In fact, WoTc have been trying to make more of those abilities to give Red something more to do (all Red does is deal damage these days. And blow up artifacts).
The 'unnaturalness' theme is one of the reasons I really like the artifact theme. Yes, it may not be the most original, but I'm sure if we put a very big emphasis on throwing artifacts in the bin we can make it work. The trouble with Ruthlessness is that it seems less W than G. I think a more interesting mechanic than your exile ideas would be my 'You may cast this for its ____ cost if a permanent left the battlefield this turn' ability. This seems solidly W/U/B/G - Black and Green can get sac/death effects, and W and U can get blink abilities.
I'm also not the biggest fan of your Decisive ability, I'm afraid. I like the idea of it, but I don't feel it fits the faction. Perhaps 'At the beginning of your end step, if you only cast one spell last turn, {EFFECT}' but that doesn't fit the set...
The other problem I'm finding with Whiteless cards is the chaos/randomness theme. We have to use it, but MaRo has been trying to take randomness out of the game. We need a mechanic that has a feeling of chaos but is not random based (or at least not flipping coins and rolling a die based).
And, @Lujikul, while the Golgari weren't necessarily bad the kind of things they do in game and the kind of things you often see on their cards isn't the most pleasant XD
Btw the ability is called Flux
Sorry I haven't given you the password yet - I'm still working things out, as you can see above. Feel free to give your opinions. I'll also be making a new lore thread soon.
that have kicker cost that are different colours to their casting cost. I think if we used this it would make cards that working in mono decks but are super powerful in quad decks.