The other thing I think we need to change is your Surpass. The reason is because, I think, to be a mechanic for a four-color faction, the ability has to be able to be on any color combination in that faction - it needs to have a bit of every color in it. Surpass, however, does not have that - it is purely R/W
Huh? Blue has artefact synergy (which covers equipment) as well as plenty of auras. White has auras too and fetches equipment specifically. Red has a few auras and interacts with artefacts in different ways. Black tutors for anything and has a couple of equipment and auras.
Overall I'd say the weakest colours are Red and Black in that one, but they both have good creatures to have Surpass on and each can bring something unique to the table, like auras or equipment that allow milling/discarding for Black, or that allow fire breathing/flowstone for Red.
I disagree. I would say that Blue doesn't have equipment synergy (that's purely white) but rather artifact synergies, which are different things. Blue rarely gets auras (I suppose at a push we could do it, but it would be difficult) too. Black rarely gets any equipment or aura support; very occasionally it has some artifact synergies but even then it's rare, and mainly when it's doing something else with them that black likes to do.
A lot of blue's auras have to do with untapping in some form, while white's often provide defensive boosts or life related boosts. Red's are very aggressive, offering things like haste or the classic firebreathing, and even first/double strike in rare occasions. And black's often are along the lines of Unholy Strength or Dead Weight, usually providing more aggressive boosts, lifelink, or decreasing stats.
As far as equipment goes, white is THE equipment color, with some support from red, which can be best seen in RW equipment decks. Black is probably next up, using equipment to gain life, Grant deathtouch, or just boosts on general. Blue cares less about equipment, and more about artifacts in general, meaning that blue cares more about artifacts that provide value, like skullclamp, if we're talking equipment exclusively.
@KJMartin I literally said that Blue has artefact synergy? Like, if you have a Blue card that fetches you an artefact from the library or the graveyard, you absolutely can pick an equipment, because it's an artefact. Any of Blue's artefact synergies applies to equipment in that regard. Also Blue gets a lot of auras? "You control enchanted creature", "Enchanted creature has flying", "Enchanted creature is unlockable", "Enchanted creature doesn't untap during its controller's untap step", "When enchanted creature deals combat damage to an opponent, draw a card", the list goes on.
Black doesn't get a lot of cards that interact with equipment or artefacts, true, but Black was in Esper, and it got artefacts that did Black things. Innistrad have us Trepanation Blade, for example, an equipment that does a uniquely Black thing. Animate Dead is a Black aura that is very iconic and just the thing for Unnaturalness. Auras that attach themselves to creatures in the graveyard to return them is both very flavourful and exactly what the faction is about. Black does get other auras too, they're just generally power with a downside.
Thanks for tagging me in on this. This was a fun read. The first thing I think is a quick acknowledgement of where artifacts and enchantments fall in the color pie. The short version is "everywhere", because both card types have universal elements, but there's also more nuance.
White is highly pro-artifact, and pro-Equipment especially. It's also pro-enchantment, but has removal against both as well. Blue is also highly pro-artifact, but not specifically in favor of equipment. It has enchantments, but only occasionally interacts with them, usually in the context of a greater theme. It used to be more pro-Aura, but WotC has moved away from that in recent years. Black is the least interested in either of these card types. If a set has a particular theme, black will occasionally interact with those card types, but if not you'll see next to nothing concerning artifacts or enchantments. Red occasionally interacts with artifacts, and with Equipment in particular, but not nearly to the same degree as white does. It most just destroys them. As for enchantments, red will use them, as in any color, but has almost no other interaction, either pro or anti. Green is staunchly anti-artifact, with very little interaction except for destruction effects, except in sets with an artifact theme. Green does favor interaction with enchantments, both for and against, and with a particular interest in Auras, in some cases.
That was all stuff you both probably knew, but I thought I'd lay it out there just in case.
But now here's my own personal perspective on the mechanic:
"Surpass - As long as this creature has an Equipment or Aura attached to it, [effect]"
The operative element in this ability isn't really Equipment or Aura. It's attached. For determining the general color identity of this effect, you should look not to whether or not a color deals with those card types but rather whether or not those colors have cards that like things to be attached to them.
White is obviously in, as it is the only color with an abundance of cards that enjoy being equipped. e.g. Sunspear Shikari, Kor Duelist.. White also enjoys attaching Auras, so it's a reasonable stretch to that as well. Bonweaver Giant and Freehand Equinaut, as examples. Old blue cards like being enchanted, so it's reasonable to bring that back in a pinch. e.g. Metathran Elite and Academy Researchers. But blue almost never interacts with Equipment particularly, except in some cases to unattach them from permanents. Black has pretty much nothing to do with either being enchanted or equipped, so it's probably out. Red is also not particularly interested in being enchanted or equipped, but there are a couple exceptions, i.e. Flaring Flame-Kin and Goblin Gaveleer. Finally, green is open to the idea of being enchanted, thanks to cards like Aura Gnarled and Bramble Elemental, but it's not something it does very often. Green is not at all interested in being equipped, however.
So in terms of deterring the current affinity for this mechanic, I'd say the order for "most in favor" to "least in favor" is:
White>Blue/Green>Red>Black
If this is for a four-color faction, I recommend putting it in the not-black faction.
Hmm. Those are very good points, @Platypusburger! If we moved Surpass to Altruism, we'd need a new mechanic for Unnaturalness.
The main problem is that Green doesn't really have something it doesn't interact with (except exile, but that's a universal thing). It draws and tutors, so it interacts with the library, it brings cards back from the graveyard, it interacts with creatures, lands, artefacts and enchantments, it even interacts with the stack to protect itself from Blue and Black. It doesn't interact with planeswalkers, but neither do Blue and Red either, really.
I'd say Green mechanically dislikes "fancy magic" the most. Artefacts and enchantments, sure, but also Blue and Black's trickiness, as shown in cards like Autumn's Veil and Witchstalker.
Perhaps a magic that sums this up might be "Sophisticated: When you cast a non-creature spell, [card name] [verb] [effect] until end of turn."
It only goes on artefacts or enchantments, and it's basically a fancy Prowess (which is already in Blue, White and Red, and wouldn't be much of a stretch in Black) that gives you more value for your non-creature spells.
@ShadowKnight1224 A variation on Prowess is definitely something I could see black doing and green not doing. Indeed, it makes sense that a black mage would want to maximize the power of his or her spells wherever possible.
@KJMartin The interesting thing about four colors is that when it comes to 'what fits', it may as well be five colors. All things that have primary colors (equipment for white, draw for blue, kill for black, damage for red, buff for green, etc) also have secondaries in another color or two. Even if you don't have something's primary color, like ubrg not having white for equipment, red does plenty of equipment and equipping and blue does plenty of artifacts so having equipment in ubrg is within reason.
Essentially what I'm saying is that if you're making a set that focuses on the four color groupings, figure out the niche you want each to fill and go from there, since there's so little outside the color pie.
@ShadowKnight1224, @PlatypusBurger I'm not a very big fan of Sophisticated I'm afraid. How about something like: Gush - Whenever you cast a spell, you may pay {COST}. If you do, {EFFECT}.
@KJMartin: That's about as generic a mechanic as it comes, I'm afraid. It's completely flavourless and mechanically fits literally anywhere.
If I may make a case for Sophisticated, I have a couple of examples of how the mechanic actually fits the specific 4-colour faction:
* Watchful Gargoyle, common 4 mana artefact. Artefact creatures you control have vigilance. Sophisticated: When you cast a non-creature spell, Watchful Gargoyle is a 2/2 artefact creature with flying until end of turn.
* Scryglass Network, common 5 mana artefact. 2, T: Scry 2. Sophisticated: When you cast a non-creature spell, Scrying Network has "whenever you scry, draw a card" until end of turn.
* Graveyard Rituals, uncommon BB enchantment. At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay 2B. If you do, create a tapped 2/2 black zombie creature token. Sophisticated: When you cast a non-creature spell, Necromantic Ritual has "zombie creatures you control get +1/+1" until end of turn.
* Chaos Field, rare 5R enchantment. Whenever a spell or ability an opponent controls is put onto the stack, if it has a single target, reselect its target at random. Sophisticated: When you cast a non-creature spell, Chaos Field has "whenever a target would be selected or reselected at random, you may pay RR. If you do, you select the target instead" until end of turn.
Sophisticated - When ____ enters the battlefield, [effect] for each color in its identity. or Sophisticated - [effect]. Only activate this ability if this is four or more colors.
The second one would be like delirium and be used on mainly 3 colored permanents. Maybe we could add color degration for a type of removal in our set as well to prevent sophisticated from always being active.
@TheFriendlyGeek The main problem with the first one is that colour identity is only used (to my knowledge) in Commander products. You'd have to go with coloured mana spent to cast it, or the colour of the permanent itself.
Another problem is that colour tends to play poorly with artefacts in general, which is an important part of Unnaturalness. Both are also fairly generic mechanics that you could easily apply to any other faction, sorry.
Colour-based removal is a good idea, I think Ravnica had a good amount of removal that cared about monocolour vs. multicolour and the like.
@ShadowKnight1224 I agree, 'Gush' isn't the best mechanic, but I much prefer it to your 'Sophisticated'. Sophisticated looks so much like Prowess. It interacts with non-creature spells, triggers whenever you cast them and the effect lasts until end of turn. I think it's best we keep prowess.
We could use the new 'Improvise' ability from the Aether Revolt Spoilers.
@KJMartin: Yeah, Sophisticated is a lot like Prowess, but it goes on enchantments and artefacts instead of creatures, and it creates an effect rather than give it +1/+1. Literally the only thing they have in common is the trigger and the duration. And far too many things last until end of turn, so the only real commonality is the trigger.
I think the only mechanic you're going to find for Unnaturalness that feels Greenless is something that triggers off non-creature spells and goes on or affects enchantments and artefacts in some fashion.
A potential rework to Sophisticated is to have it last forever once triggered, instead of lasting until end of turn. It limits its development, but it's a possibility. Another option is to have a Morbid-like trigger at the end of the turn that cares about whether you've cast a non-creature spell this turn (and perhaps, how many). Going in that same route, another possibility is "for every non-creature spell you've cast this turn" as an ETB or "when you cast [cardname]" effect (maybe as a death trigger? would be hard to set up).
@ShadowKnight1224 I also disagree with you when you say: 'I think the only mechanic you're going to find for Unnaturalness that feels Greenless is something that triggers off non-creature spells and goes on or affects enchantments and artefacts in some fashion.' Change 'and' to 'or'. 4 color-factions have lots of aspects, as all colors and color combinations do - it's your choice which aspect you want to zone in on. In this case, the mechanic for unnaturalness could either interact with artefacts or with spells. Like how a R/W/U/B faction doesn't have to do stuff with both, a green faction, say, wouldn't have to interact with ramp, lifegain, artefact and enchantment destroying, an so on.
@KJMartin Depends on when/how it triggers. I was thinking of a version that has an additional ETB effect if you cast a non-creature spell this turn, and also of a version like Morbid that checks every turn at the end.
As for the rest, I agree partially. Yes, good mechanics are focused (and flavourful), but generally some colours are harder than others when it comes to things they mechanically do or don't do. Green in particular, like Blue, interacts at least a bit with everything, so it's hard to find a "photographic negative" of them, so to speak.
@ShadowKnight1224 thanks! I took the idea from the tri-color tapped lands and as we know those are labeled at uncommon. I had to find a way to make sure that the 4 color ones were npt strictly better and I wanted them to stay uncommon. So I came up with a downside not too groundbreaking, but making the ability limited.
It's pretty good! Some factions are more instant-speed than others, so perhaps there could be an alternate cycle that instead costs life to tap? Or that requires bouncing a land already in play? I think there's a lot of potential for 4-colour lands, and you've definitely shown us a solid start.
That seems great @unicornsareevil13579 and I really like how they are not just 4 color Karoos but you have to return a land of the specific type of the color
Comments
The other thing I think we need to change is your Surpass. The reason is because, I think, to be a mechanic for a four-color faction, the ability has to be able to be on any color combination in that faction - it needs to have a bit of every color in it. Surpass, however, does not have that - it is purely R/W
Overall I'd say the weakest colours are Red and Black in that one, but they both have good creatures to have Surpass on and each can bring something unique to the table, like auras or equipment that allow milling/discarding for Black, or that allow fire breathing/flowstone for Red.
Not really sure what the problem is here.
I disagree. I would say that Blue doesn't have equipment synergy (that's purely white) but rather artifact synergies, which are different things. Blue rarely gets auras (I suppose at a push we could do it, but it would be difficult) too. Black rarely gets any equipment or aura support; very occasionally it has some artifact synergies but even then it's rare, and mainly when it's doing something else with them that black likes to do.
Ima gonna need some other opinions on this from people who know about color pie stuff - @PlatypusBurger @ningyouNK @Phelgming @strongbelieves.
As far as equipment goes, white is THE equipment color, with some support from red, which can be best seen in RW equipment decks. Black is probably next up, using equipment to gain life, Grant deathtouch, or just boosts on general. Blue cares less about equipment, and more about artifacts in general, meaning that blue cares more about artifacts that provide value, like skullclamp, if we're talking equipment exclusively.
Black doesn't get a lot of cards that interact with equipment or artefacts, true, but Black was in Esper, and it got artefacts that did Black things. Innistrad have us Trepanation Blade, for example, an equipment that does a uniquely Black thing. Animate Dead is a Black aura that is very iconic and just the thing for Unnaturalness. Auras that attach themselves to creatures in the graveyard to return them is both very flavourful and exactly what the faction is about. Black does get other auras too, they're just generally power with a downside.
Thanks for tagging me in on this. This was a fun read. The first thing I think is a quick acknowledgement of where artifacts and enchantments fall in the color pie. The short version is "everywhere", because both card types have universal elements, but there's also more nuance.
White is highly pro-artifact, and pro-Equipment especially. It's also pro-enchantment, but has removal against both as well.
Blue is also highly pro-artifact, but not specifically in favor of equipment. It has enchantments, but only occasionally interacts with them, usually in the context of a greater theme. It used to be more pro-Aura, but WotC has moved away from that in recent years.
Black is the least interested in either of these card types. If a set has a particular theme, black will occasionally interact with those card types, but if not you'll see next to nothing concerning artifacts or enchantments.
Red occasionally interacts with artifacts, and with Equipment in particular, but not nearly to the same degree as white does. It most just destroys them. As for enchantments, red will use them, as in any color, but has almost no other interaction, either pro or anti.
Green is staunchly anti-artifact, with very little interaction except for destruction effects, except in sets with an artifact theme. Green does favor interaction with enchantments, both for and against, and with a particular interest in Auras, in some cases.
That was all stuff you both probably knew, but I thought I'd lay it out there just in case.
But now here's my own personal perspective on the mechanic:
"Surpass - As long as this creature has an Equipment or Aura attached to it, [effect]"
The operative element in this ability isn't really Equipment or Aura. It's attached. For determining the general color identity of this effect, you should look not to whether or not a color deals with those card types but rather whether or not those colors have cards that like things to be attached to them.
White is obviously in, as it is the only color with an abundance of cards that enjoy being equipped. e.g. Sunspear Shikari, Kor Duelist.. White also enjoys attaching Auras, so it's a reasonable stretch to that as well. Bonweaver Giant and Freehand Equinaut, as examples.
Old blue cards like being enchanted, so it's reasonable to bring that back in a pinch. e.g. Metathran Elite and Academy Researchers. But blue almost never interacts with Equipment particularly, except in some cases to unattach them from permanents.
Black has pretty much nothing to do with either being enchanted or equipped, so it's probably out.
Red is also not particularly interested in being enchanted or equipped, but there are a couple exceptions, i.e. Flaring Flame-Kin and Goblin Gaveleer.
Finally, green is open to the idea of being enchanted, thanks to cards like Aura Gnarled and Bramble Elemental, but it's not something it does very often. Green is not at all interested in being equipped, however.
So in terms of deterring the current affinity for this mechanic, I'd say the order for "most in favor" to "least in favor" is:
White>Blue/Green>Red>Black
If this is for a four-color faction, I recommend putting it in the not-black faction.
The main problem is that Green doesn't really have something it doesn't interact with (except exile, but that's a universal thing). It draws and tutors, so it interacts with the library, it brings cards back from the graveyard, it interacts with creatures, lands, artefacts and enchantments, it even interacts with the stack to protect itself from Blue and Black. It doesn't interact with planeswalkers, but neither do Blue and Red either, really.
I'd say Green mechanically dislikes "fancy magic" the most. Artefacts and enchantments, sure, but also Blue and Black's trickiness, as shown in cards like Autumn's Veil and Witchstalker.
Perhaps a magic that sums this up might be "Sophisticated: When you cast a non-creature spell, [card name] [verb] [effect] until end of turn."
It only goes on artefacts or enchantments, and it's basically a fancy Prowess (which is already in Blue, White and Red, and wouldn't be much of a stretch in Black) that gives you more value for your non-creature spells.
Essentially what I'm saying is that if you're making a set that focuses on the four color groupings, figure out the niche you want each to fill and go from there, since there's so little outside the color pie.
I'm not a very big fan of Sophisticated I'm afraid.
How about something like:
Gush - Whenever you cast a spell, you may pay {COST}. If you do, {EFFECT}.
If I may make a case for Sophisticated, I have a couple of examples of how the mechanic actually fits the specific 4-colour faction:
* Watchful Gargoyle, common 4 mana artefact. Artefact creatures you control have vigilance. Sophisticated: When you cast a non-creature spell, Watchful Gargoyle is a 2/2 artefact creature with flying until end of turn.
* Scryglass Network, common 5 mana artefact. 2, T: Scry 2. Sophisticated: When you cast a non-creature spell, Scrying Network has "whenever you scry, draw a card" until end of turn.
* Graveyard Rituals, uncommon BB enchantment. At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay 2B. If you do, create a tapped 2/2 black zombie creature token. Sophisticated: When you cast a non-creature spell, Necromantic Ritual has "zombie creatures you control get +1/+1" until end of turn.
* Chaos Field, rare 5R enchantment. Whenever a spell or ability an opponent controls is put onto the stack, if it has a single target, reselect its target at random. Sophisticated: When you cast a non-creature spell, Chaos Field has "whenever a target would be selected or reselected at random, you may pay RR. If you do, you select the target instead" until end of turn.
Sophisticated - When ____ enters the battlefield, [effect] for each color in its identity.
or
Sophisticated - [effect]. Only activate this ability if this is four or more colors.
The second one would be like delirium and be used on mainly 3 colored permanents. Maybe we could add color degration for a type of removal in our set as well to prevent sophisticated from always being active.
Another problem is that colour tends to play poorly with artefacts in general, which is an important part of Unnaturalness. Both are also fairly generic mechanics that you could easily apply to any other faction, sorry.
Colour-based removal is a good idea, I think Ravnica had a good amount of removal that cared about monocolour vs. multicolour and the like.
I agree, 'Gush' isn't the best mechanic, but I much prefer it to your 'Sophisticated'. Sophisticated looks so much like Prowess. It interacts with non-creature spells, triggers whenever you cast them and the effect lasts until end of turn. I think it's best we keep prowess.
We could use the new 'Improvise' ability from the Aether Revolt Spoilers.
Shade the Light is really cool, btw!
I think the only mechanic you're going to find for Unnaturalness that feels Greenless is something that triggers off non-creature spells and goes on or affects enchantments and artefacts in some fashion.
A potential rework to Sophisticated is to have it last forever once triggered, instead of lasting until end of turn. It limits its development, but it's a possibility. Another option is to have a Morbid-like trigger at the end of the turn that cares about whether you've cast a non-creature spell this turn (and perhaps, how many). Going in that same route, another possibility is "for every non-creature spell you've cast this turn" as an ETB or "when you cast [cardname]" effect (maybe as a death trigger? would be hard to set up).
One idea could be:
Sophisticated - As long as you've cast a noncreature spell this turn, [EFFECT].
Or did you already mean that?
I also disagree with you when you say:
'I think the only mechanic you're going to find for Unnaturalness that feels Greenless is something that triggers off non-creature spells and goes on or affects enchantments and artefacts in some fashion.'
Change 'and' to 'or'. 4 color-factions have lots of aspects, as all colors and color combinations do - it's your choice which aspect you want to zone in on. In this case, the mechanic for unnaturalness could either interact with artefacts or with spells. Like how a R/W/U/B faction doesn't have to do stuff with both, a green faction, say, wouldn't have to interact with ramp, lifegain, artefact and enchantment destroying, an so on.
As for the rest, I agree partially. Yes, good mechanics are focused (and flavourful), but generally some colours are harder than others when it comes to things they mechanically do or don't do. Green in particular, like Blue, interacts at least a bit with everything, so it's hard to find a "photographic negative" of them, so to speak.
http://mtgcardsmith.com/view/environmental-core
http://mtgcardsmith.com/view/lively-steppes
"(Name) entered the battlefield tapped.
As an additional cost to cast (Name) return an untap island, swamp, mountain or forest you control to its owners hand.
{t}: Add {u}, {b}, {r} or {g} to your mana pool. "