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Renaissance Set — Creative Design
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As you mentionned, we should be careful with the number of elements of Theros we bring in this set. But I also like Ashiok very much and if the story does resolve around a mystery and emotions he could be a really good fit regardless ^^
@MagicChess
Life-matters doesn't have a flavour yet, it could tie into emotions? ^^ Also, I liked the idea of a mechanic about "Renaissance" that someone mentioned earlier, we haven't been very vocal about our main theme yet. Discover could fit the science/technology flavour as well as exploration maybe? (Explorers would discover lands, enchantments and creatures while inventors would discover instants, sorceries and artifacts for instance.) Note that we don't need a specific mechanic for each trope, and it's important for our mechanics to be useful to every colours or at least three of them, as you mentioned yourself.
Don't forget that Standard will change along the creation of this set so don't rely too much on Amonkhet or Kaladesh when thinking about the archetypes. Think of it more like a supplemental set: it must be fun in a vaccum.
- Here's another idea for the plot based on what you said: The plane has a number of muses that inspire emotions to people. But someone (the antagonist) is stealing the muses which brings unbalance in emotions (can you love if you can't hate?) and disturbs creativity.
- I like the idea of an evil planeswalker being behind this.
- It would be cool to have already existing characters showing up on our plane, though it's complicated to find good artworks of them that hasn't been used on official cards.
@syntheticreign
I really like "Overflow" as a mechanic name, let's keep it in mind
Maybe the Muse reappearing could be the Renaissance of this plane? The plane was dull and suddendly the Muses come, everyone become overemotional and makes awesome art, and it's cool but it's also unsettling and we'd like to know why they're here? Because seeing everyone getting crazy over everything kinda sounds like an evil plan to our main protagonist.
@brcien @MagicChess @syntheticreign
Not having an antagonist could also be a possibility, but we need some conflict at some point, otherwise there is no story. There are other types of conflicts though, maybe we want to save something? Or find something?
@modnation675
I really like those three cards, they are adorable ^^ And I remember us talking about having the power/toughness balance matters à la Gilt-Leaf Winnower ( http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398495 ). I think your interpretation of it sounds really fun and original, I like the idea of an archetype based on this because it interacts with pump spells in a very fresh way ^^
@Lujikul
I'd love to see another one of your stories
Not too attached to the ideas I'm throattached, but figure one might end up landing XD
So here's a suggestion of mechanic for pump spells:
Renaissance — Whenever |trigger], you may pay {cost}. If you do, return CARDNAME from your graveyard to your hand.
It's a bit wordy, but maybe there's a way of doing something similar with less words?
Maybe something like:
Renaissance (cost) (You may pay (cost) as you cast this spell to copy it.)
E.g:
Leap of Faith
W
Instant
Renaissance {2}
Target creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
If this is the second time you resolve this spell this turn, that creature gains flying until end of turn.
Reformed Vampire (2)(B)
Creature-Vampire
Deathtouch
Renaissance--When you cast a white spell, Reformed Vampire loses Deathtouch and gains Lifelink.
2/1
Sorry too lazy to find art XD
Yeah, it does sound like an interesting mechanic, but it can vary both in trigger and effect which is a little too versatile to be keyworded I think. Could we think of a way to make this more formated, like Overload?
Also, here are a number of things we could use for the next mechanic(s):
- A mechanic that feels more midrange, to complement Virtuoso that's more aggro and Discover that's more control.
- A mechanic that's relevant in combat.
- A mana sink mechanic to use extra mana in the late game (which would be especially important with psy life.)
Crafty {1}{R}{G}{T}: sacrifice any number of spare parts you have create a N/M construct token, N is equal to the number of nails sacrificed this way, m is equal to the number of braces sacrificed this way.
And there would be cards that have things like
"When this creature enters the battlefield or does you get C nails and Z braces spare part tokens"
And to go one step further
"Flying, first strike
When this creature dies create a wings and talons spare part that has when this token is sacrificed to make a construct the construct gains and can't lose both flying and first strike
It sounds a bit like what Contraptions could be XD It's fun but it feels more suited for an artifact set. Also, it's probably too parasitic and complex in this iteration, in my opinion.
Overflow: At the beginning of your upkeep, gain X Psylian life, where X is equal to the amount of permanents with Overflow on the battlefield minus your current Psylian life total.
@Everybody
Ya know what I'm thinking? We should actually write the story for this plane, the way WotC does, once we've finished the set. I, for one, would be more than happy to write some of it, and I'm sure @Lujikul would love to contribute too. However, that's a while away. We need to make our final mechanic and decide on the basic storyline, as well as designing some key cards probably, before we can begin writing.
Yeah I figured, I was just throwing stuff at a wall haha. And I'd love to help with the writing as well, but that'll be down the road.
Things we need to decide on for the story:
- Who or what is the antagonist? If we choose not to have a concrete antagonist, it could merely be a mystery/other challenge.
- What Planeswalkers will be on the plane for the set? Will the Gatewatch show up? Or will a different 'walker arrive?
- What is the plane like? I think we've decided on a really big archipelago with a bunch of tiny islands.
- What archetypes and races do we have? As for races, we should definitely include the MTG standards, like elves, goblins, dwarves, and some form of dragon-like creature. I also think we should have sirens and avens, although that might be a little too Theros-y.
- In addition to 'walkers (I might be getting ahead of myself here), what are a few key characters? This would include the antagonist (if there is one); probably an explorer who brings new information about the world, because exploration is one of our major tropes; and some sort of Da Vinci - like character because, well, duh.
- And finally, how does psylian life translate into the story? Is it representative of the Muses' influence? Of creativity? Do great artists and inventors gain/innately have some kind of magic?
--pass
--above my pay grade, but I would assume modeled after Italy if it is a archipelago so I would say architecture and biodiversity roughly based on Europe especially Italy.
--Dwarves are not common in EDH though I hope that changes. I would say Merfolk fit in pretty easily if we say their is just an underwater city that is experiencing similar revivals. Don't see Vedalken here. To avoid Theros I would say avoid spirits and Leonin. Think something weird could be cool, bu the art pool for renaissance fantasy is already so hard to find.
--I think my ideal story for this pane to make everything simple is that a legendary creature artist is part of a crime solving unit that investigates the paranormal. There would be a few episodic adventures that have little hints to Ashiok, who has been disturbing the flow of creativity with horrific influence. The unit would then have to find (or much rather create) a magic powerful enough to force Xim off the plane. A new planeswalker or Ral Zarek would be the only ones who make sense to me to fill a secondary spot since if this would be the story, then no other ones make too much sense. I won't waste time going in too deep, but you could have a Guard Captain, someone who finds underground street tips, and a mystical Moriarty to fill out a cast in this type of story
--I assumed it was by infusing their passion and life into mana. The mechanic would simply be a representation of their humanistic endeavors combined with their magical training.
This version of Overflow has a few flaws that could be improved from my perspective:
- It makes you do a lot of math.
- It's wordy.
- It can be abused and is difficult to balance because of the lack of knobs.
- It just gives you psy life but doesn't really fill any other role like making combat more spicy or giving you the opportunity to use your extra mana in the late game.
@MagicChess @brcien
- I'm open to both having a mystery or an actual antagonist. The real question, I think, is how does this translate into cards? What would be the Story Spotlight card number 5/5 in each situation? I like Ashiok, but do we have enough fan-arts of him?
- I'm in favour of doing a 5-planeswalkers cycle even if it's above the planeswalker count of an average set. I think we need at least one new planeswalker from this plane, and at least one old planeswalker we already know. There are probably a lot of fan-arts about the Gatewatch so it could be a good reason to bring them in just to make use of all these artworks available.
- I think the idea of having a world made of small archipelagos is good because it plays well with themes like exploration and trading (you have a lot of islands to discover). It can translate into cards with a few cards showing ships and seas ^^ Do we want pirates though? I'm scared this would be the kind of thing that would completely overshadow the more important themes.
- We're not bound to use all the characteristic (humans, merfolks, zombies/vampires, goblins, elves) or iconic (angels, sphinxes, demons, dragons, hydras) races. But they're characteristic/iconic for a reason: they are well-loved and they are common fantasy tropes which means a lot of excellent artworks picture them. I'm personally all in favour of using them, with a few twist here and there if we can. (See the creature grid definition.)
- Renaissance has a lot of well-known figures, probably enough to make an entire cycle of legendary creatures! I do agree we *have* to do a Da Vinci legendary. The artists giving their names to the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles could all be good tropes everyone know (Donatello, Leonardo Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Raphael) but it'll be hard to give them a different mechanical character.
- I liked Psylian life being either inspiration or emotions. For the name, if we find a short name for the plane we could give it the plane's name. For instance, if we were on Hylia (the world of the Legend of Zelda), it would be Hylian Life?
@pkfdre
Cool art! Planeswalker design is one of the hardest thing though, and this would need a number of tweaks to really work. For instance the first ability doesn't really do anything because it doesn't enable the second one. The second ability is probably not strong enough to be -4, there are a lot of templating issues that probably don't fit in the box once you write them correctly, etc.
Psylia
Psylio
Psylias
Psylios
Psylius
Psylick
Psylian
The Clayshaper
What does a child do? They run, jump, and play. They move actively, like gears in a great machine. But they also cry, and smile, and hurt. They know no bounds, curious for knowledge, eager to see, their minds drifting in each and every direction, filling the cracks and gaps in the unforeseen future, inspiring them, until they one day do great things.
Every child knows this to be true, a secret hidden from society in the deepest, darkest, most hopeful parts of their hearts. So it is not difficult to imagine the surprise that came to the hatmaker's son when the son of the cobbler would hardly leave his room for a week, simply saying, "I wish to be alone."
Everyone knows that adults are boring. They dare not dream, lest they shatter their own hearts. They are sucked dry of any passion, any emotion, hardened by the cruelty of existence. The works of the painters and clayshapers lack emotion, and provoke nothing.
The land is small, a region surrounded by countless volumes of water, and a harsh, unforgiving ocean. Every adult knows there is nothing beyond, while every child dreams that there is something out there, beyond the expanse of waves and storms, through the tides, and past the rains, that there's a beacon of light, of a whole new world.
Every adult is cold, until one day. The clayshaper moulds five faces, struck with an epiphany, a desire to try something new.
The first face had a wide smile, revealing a reservoir of joy and bliss running deeper than the heart itself.
The second face was a twisted scream of agony, frozen in stone, and granted eternal pain.
The third face was a frown of unbound anger, an ire so furious that not even the storms could match it.
The fourth face, a mask of timidity, and a desire to be left alone.
The fifth, a sweet look of love and caring, a warmth only mothers can produce.
The clayshaper knows not why he made these faces, but for the same reasons that the baker's daughter, for no reason but a tickling urge, paints images of inspiration, sparking desire, passion, and a childlike curiosity.
That day, adults set sail, seeking something past the tides. That day, adults yearned to know more, and challenge what they already did. That day, adults crafted silly creations, all for a flight of fancy. That day, adults were children once more.
Welcome, to the plane of Julvenia, where art comes to life, and people dare to dream with reckless abandon.
______________
Some ideas based on the name Overflow:
Overflow (X)(cost) (You must use all mana abilities you can to cast this spell for its overflow cost.)
Overflow (cost) (Choose all instead if you paid this cost.) ==> On 'Choose one —" spells.
(tap), Overflow blue: Until end of turn, blue creatures you control gain "(X): This creature gets +X/+X until end of turn." Activate this only when you could cast a sorcery.
@syntheticreign, your version of Overflow is interesting, but the emotion theme of it is dubious. Anyway, I think it could be improved upon by making it "+X/-X" instead of +x/+x.
Also, I think that overflow maybe isn't the best name because it's too similar, in both the name itself and the implied effect, to Overload.
@Everybody
As for the name of the set/plane, @Lujikul proposed "Julvenia," and we've also considered some extrapolations of "psylian" such as psylia, psylius, etc. Personally, I like "psylia," but another possibility is a name based off of a relevant Italian word. One such word is "estro," which means inspiration, flair, or whim. Estrolia? Estran? Estiria? Estria? Estrolen? Estro-ssance?? XD
Just to get some more ideas out there, the greek letter "psy" looks like a trident, so maybe something like that. Incidentally, the trident is the symbol of psychology for that very reason. An apt letter to pick, @ningyounk! Psy is the 23rd letter of the Greek alphabet, and the 23rd letter of the English one is W.
The only decent fan art I've seen of Ashiok is Xim clutching Dack Fayden's head and driving him insane. O_O
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Here are some flavor concepts about psylian life:
- Representative of the Muses' influence
- Great artists gain/innately have some kind of magic (i.e. "art magic/ creation magic")
- Do artistic creations, instead of coming to life, change reality? As in, if a great artist paints a super realistic picture of blue grass, a field of grass somewhere would become blue? That could be represented by psylian life in that people change due to creations.
The flavor is held in the Muses. When the Muses returned to the plane, they were overflowing with their respective emotions, so the Overflow mechanic is rooted in their creative gifts and emotions they've given back to the people of the plane upon their return. Much in the same way, I liked the idea of a mechanic called "Recharge" for a (hypothetical) future set, based on the fact that the Muses leave for centuries at a time to "recharge" their emotional outpourings. I wanted Overflow to fit in as something that washed over everything (in the most recent idea, creatures) and gave them benefits. It could also give Psylian life, or do anything else, but I wanted it to be something that seemed to flow over everything, hence the name :P
{trigger}: Overflow {thing} - {something} ({thing}s you control gain {something} until end of turn).
For example: When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, Overflow enchantments - "Whenever you gain life, you gain one additional life of that type."
Or: Overflow instants and sorceries - "You gain 2 pyslian life."
Or: Whenever CARDNAME deals combat damage to a player, Overflow attacking creatures - +1/+1.
This wording is probably too clumsy and I dunno if the format is correct. There isn't a real mechanic I can think of off the top of my head that could be referenced for this interpretation XD
Yeah I knew that the power and toughness boost wouldn't fit, but I wanted to give an idea for the layout of the mechanic. I like the idea of overflowing specific colors or types, rather than specific creatures. I want it to be something that gives a lot of variety in terms of play, and each Muse has a specific Overflow focus that makes them unique. Overflow itself I like as giving a sweeping bonus to all of a certain type of permanent or spell, whereas what that bonus is is still up for discussion (obviously lol).
I've always loved trying to make mechanics that break conventional thoughts on formatting, because that's really fun to me. I enjoy seeing a keyword or card format that makes everyone want to play it because it's so different from everything else. Of course with that comes the glaringly obvious difficulty of balance haha, but I enjoy the challenge, even if I MISERABLY fail it most times.
Its inception and real creation is on page 7, and we've toyed with it in theory and playtesting a bit from then on
For me, "Overflow" both have a positive meaning (you get a lot of power very fast) and a negative meaning (you're overwhelmed by your emotions, you're losing control.) Maybe we could make the opponent or his/her creatures Overflow, actually? I like the idea of a pump ability with a downsides for instance like the +X/-X as well.
It's true it's a bit close to the name "Overload", but as long as flavour and gameplay align I think we can avoid the comparison.
Examples of prowess-like mechanics showing the creature having too much stuff happening in its life and being overwhelmed:
Overflow (Whenever you cast a spell beyond your first each turn, this creature gets +X/-X until end of turn.)
Overflow (Whenever you cast your second spell each turn, put a +1/+1 counter on this creature and it loses all its abilities until end of turn.)
Yes, I do believe "{trigger}: Overflow {thing} - {something} ({thing}s you control gain {something} until end of turn)." is too complex and would be a nightmare to design because it cares about way too many different stuff at the same time. But I see your point ^^
I got a weird one (again, I'm sorry) XD Maybe we could use crotchets (those things --> [ ]) as design tools? Here are example:
Overflow (cost) ((cost): Ignore everything in crotchets in this rules box until end of turn.)
- Draw a card, [then discard a card].
- Creatures can't attack you [unless their controller pays 1 life for each creature attacking you].
- Destroy target creature [with power 2 or less].
Overflow (cost) (Ignore everything in crotchets in this rules box unless CARDNAME's Overflow cost was paid this turn.)
- CARDNAME gets +1/+1 [and gains flying] until end of turn.
- Draw a card [for each tapped creature you control].
- [Indestructible]
Overflow (cost) ((cost): Double every number in crotchets in this rules box until end of turn.)
- CARDNAME gets +[2]/+[2] until end of turn.
- Draw [two] cards then discard two cards.
- Create [one] white [2]/[2] Cat creature token.
On Names:
I like the idea of an italian sounding name more for the plane. Though I would avoid anything based on Estrus/Estro, because it sounds like the female hormones and is the same radical than for words refering to uterus stuffs. The word hysteria for instance.
Julvenia doesn't sound super fitting to me because the letter J isn't part of the proper Italian alphabet and the phoneme [lv] would be very unlikely. Also it's still a bit close to the original word "Juvenile" for me and doesn't convey the Renaissance theme clearly enough in my opnion.
Once again, Psylian life doesn't have to be related to the letter psy, it's just a random name I gave it ^^ Unless you actually want to keep the "Psy" concept? XD
@pkfdre
It's not set in stone but so far:
- Psylian life is part of your life total, it's just a subset of it.
- You lose psylian life before you lose regular life.
- At any time, you may pay 2 psylian life to add a mana of any color to your mana pool.