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Renaissance Set — Design Phase
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Alright, does anyone else have a proposition for the Emotions?
I want to press that I'm not irremediably opposed to Envy, or any other emotion, it's just that I struggle to make everything click together when I try it, but there may be a way to do it properly, I just didn't find one myself that I found satisfying enough.
So, if nobody has another proposition for the Emotion, I'd like to lock in the following emotion and mechanical themes for each colour for now. It doesn''t mean that we can't change them if they feel wrong during playtest. From this point, it just means that we try to make them work they way they are before trying to replace them ^^ This way we don't have to design thinking "Black could be either Sorrow or Envy depending on which cycle we choose" but "Black is Sorrow unless it proves too problematic."
==> LOCKED IN FOR NOW (unless anyone wants to make a last minute ojection?)
Cool designs! A couple questions...
- Who's Rosamilla? And what are his/her/its/their/xes/etc etc etc schemes?
- If we're putting saprolings in a signpost unco, we need to be sure we have them as a major theme in the set, which, as of now, we don't. Perhaps substitute the saprolings for our 0/1 Faeries (the little muses) that give you psylian life when they die?
- Wording question: Do you need to specify "The choosing player"? On cards that say "Any player can activate this ability" (for example, Deadly Designs http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=416799) don't do so.
Rosamilla is the last name I used for the black Mona Lisa, I don't know what her schemes are, the name is mostly a place holder x)
I put Saprolings because I needed a 1/1 but really it could be anything. Actually this card probably is monogreen on second thought ^^ Maybe 0/1 plants?
That's a really good question, I'm not sure. I believe "You" refers to the controller of the card, so in the case of Deadly Designs the opponents don't put the counters themselves on the card, they force the controller to do so. Which would mean that, with Royal Courtesy, even if an opponent choose one, you still get that effect, they just chose which effect you will be getting. I don't know of any precedent though. Realistically, this is too wacky for uncommon I think, it probably belongs in a Mythic slot. Also once again it's probably monogreen after reading it again x)
In the "let's try something new" department, I tried a version of Rebirth that uses the legendary supertype instead of the reborn subtype. I don't know how problematic the synergy with random legendary creatures is goign to get, the flavour of making a creature legendary just sounded cool so I tried ^^
Dancing Prowess - Neat.
Stone Mender - Creatures, and nice.
New Spring Champion - Really cool, but won't Legendary be a bit restrictive as two would kill each other?
Captivating Lessons - My personal favorite. *ThumbsUp*
1) Do players start the game with Psylian life?
2) If so, how do we prevent them from using free mana right away? Maybe you can't use Psylian life until turn 3 or something? Or maybe it's cumulative, so the first time you use it in a turn it costs 2 for [c], then if you use it again that turn it costs 3 for [c], and so on?
3) Will we have cards in the set that have costs that require [c] so that you HAVE to use Psylian life? (making a cycle of the muses right now that plays around with this)
1) No, you need to have cards that specifically make you gain psylian life. It's similar to other mechanics like Energy, or the Monarch.
2) See above ^^
3) We can have cards that specifically require you to pay psylian life to cast it. But we don't have the technology to make a new symbol that have to be paid with psylian life, so you have to use "As an additional cost to cast CARDNAME, pay N psylian life" in the rules text. It would be too close to phyrexian mana anyway, and it's terribly parasitic, so I don't think it would be a good idea. Paying psylian life as an alternative cost or as a "kicker" ability is probably fine in small doses tough ^^ For the Muses, be careful that they need to stand out on their own outside a psylian life deck. Think of how disapointing the Gearhulks of Kaladesh would have been if they all had an activation cost requiring Energy for instance.
Having true colorless costs is basically an A/B mechanic in itself though, it requires to build the set in a way that makes sure everyone has access to colorless mana production, which is quite hard to do. Also, keep in mind that we're still considering having psylian life give you coloured mana (especially since Treasures did not completely break Ixalan's standard ^^) so it may not fit with the final version. Here's a the most recent summary of the little things that may change (or that we're at least discussing right now): http://forums.mtgcardsmith.com/discussion/comment/95012/#Comment_95012
Everything is still mostly true except the Emotion mechanic discussion that is already a little outdated. We have discussed many forms for the Emotion mechanic (some crazier than others) but nothing has been conclusive so far.
- I think using the life-matters condition works really well and helps giving them a unique identity.
- The wording of those abilities sound a little weird. It's not important for a concept card, but I think it would be a static abikity rather than a triggered one, something like "As long as you lost life this turn, creatures you control have..."
- I like the idea of having a protection ability that make them blink/bounce/phase. It feels different enough from a God and plays well into the cycle theme.
- Not a huge fan of the colorless activation cost so far, I think it would need a colorless-matter theme in the set in general to work both thematically and mechanically.
- I think they need a last element that makes them really original. It could be that they have influence over the battlefield from exile, that they give an ability to every creature even your opponent's, that they have an effect from your hand, that their stats are linked to your life , that they protect themselves in a similar way than the Rekindling Phoenix, etc.
- I know the wording was strange. I was trying to make it primarily an ETB effect so that it thematically emphasized the whole "Emotions when the Muses" arrive thing, though I see how that sacrifices their permanent impact.
- I'm glad the protection is liked. It fit thematically to me (Muses would, logically, protect themselves) and made their previous ETB triggers more common.
- I would agree overall with that. It could be changed to "pay 2 psy life" or something like that instead. I just used colorless because that's what the mechanic was when last I worked on the set.
- Even more agreement. Perhaps something that cares about other Grand Muses in your hand? That could be interesting, like "If this is the only Grand Muse in your hand, you may play with it revealed. All creatures gain "Sacrifice this creature: Gain 1 Psylian life" for as long as it remains revealed." I know that's long, but something to that effect could be fun and definitely unique
- "It could be changed to "pay 2 psy life"" ==> The flashy Mythic cycle need to be not too parasitic, so if they have an activation cost that requires psylian life, they need to have another ability that gives you psylian life. Still I would be worried to see all five muses be so much better in a dedicated psylian life deck than any other deck. The goal is more to have them be cool and original cards (definitely more Timmy/Tammy) that could be interesting outside of Rezatta Limited ^^ Think elder Dinosaurs or Amonkhet Gods.
-"Perhaps something that cares about other Grand Muses in your hand?" ==> That's too parasitic, what are the odds of opening two Muses in Limited for instance?
- The "Play with it revealed" ability is interesting and flashy, it could definitely be an option ^^ How about a sort of Zendikar Quest from your hand maybe? It's really wordy but here's a vague concept I mixed with the "global effect that affects ALL players" concept:
On the example card: That's a really neat idea. I do like the notion of a sort of "group hug" effect, where all players benefit, but you still have the advantage. I also really like cards that have completely alternative casting costs, so this is just really cool.
Replacing Reborn by Legendary is just an idea to make it more flavourful. I don't think the Legendary rules would become a real issue, it adds just a bit of tension and would not come up often enough to really matter. The main problem is that it could limit us from doing certain designs that care about legendary creatures for the specific Rebirth archetype. Basically, it's the same for us if we stick to "As long as this creature is reborn, EFFECT" and enter-the-battlefield effects. But if we need to push the Rebirth archetype with abilities like "Whenever a Reborn/legendary creature ETB under your control", or "All Reborn/legendary creatures you control have ABILITY", there will be cross-synergies with regular legendary creatures that we would need to monitor. It's not necessary a bad thing though, it can be really cool ^^
So we need to ask ourselves "Are the flavour aspect and possible synergies of the legendary supertype worth the balancing difficulties it brings with it."
Clearly you're not a fan of the flavour itself x) I'd be interested in seeing other people's point of view as well? I'll try to design some Rebirth cards so we get a better idea of the implications ^^
https://mtgcardsmith.com/view/muse-of-pride-and-shame-3?list=set&set=23365
You're a bit late I'm afraid x) We decided to lock in the monocoloured muses so we can progress more easily, so that ship just sailed >.<
The main issue with that version was that it was already difficult to depict one emotion while being innovative, fitting the rules text box and having a coherent mechanical representation of each emotion throughout the set, so having two on the same card was a little too hardcore to design x) If the cycle we just chose turns out problematic, we may revisit the idea ^^ For now we're trying to move on to other topics.
Here are concept cards that are meant to explore Rebirth's design space. It's not really about the effects, more about the triggers and the type of effects: they all use Rebirth in a slightly different way. Independantly of what the end result is, I'd like to focus on how they use Rebirth ^^
Based on those examples, I'd like to discuss whether it's better to use the supertype "legendary" or a new subtype with no baggage like "Reborn". What do you prefer flavourwise? Which do you think will give the most exciting/clean designs? Do you think the rules baggage of legendary (uniqueness rules + regular legendaries existing) is an upsides or a downsides?
I think "Reborn" would be best. Legendary has a cool flavor, but the rules technicalities that accompany making reborn creatures legendary is undesirable.
Also, some of those cards would be AWESOME in EDH!
For Muse of Bliss:
-Stuff attacking doesn't seem very blissful.
-I love the alternate way of casting them
What if we used the symbol to show a card cares about pysilian life? I mean, it would make sense, and it would be a cool new touch.
Are you afraid about the uniqueness rule more specifically? It will only trigger if you try to Rebirth twice the same creature, but you can have a Legendary version of a creature and as many nonlegendary of that same creature on the battlefield as you want. This means your cards won't ever stay dead in your hand like a regular Legendary, it just adds a little more tension once you have enough mana to Rebirth. We could also use this at our advantage: having a player use the Monstruosity ability of multiple Fleecemane Lion is basically game over, using Legendary over Reborn means that our system forces you to upgrade each version one at a time in a similar situation, I think it only makes the game fairer since creatures after their Rebirth will usually be expensive, large and threatening—just like Monstruous creatures.
@Tigersol
Yeah I figured the same thing, I'm trying to make a cycle of those Muses but they're really hard to design xD Anyway, I put a "whenever a creature enters the batttlefield" trigger on the white one so far ^^ I still don't know if I'll manage to make the five of them consistent though.
About the life-matters symbol, the only technology available to us would be to alter the art directly, so I'm lukewarm about the idea of using it to signify psylian life cards because it's not as necessary as the life-matters theme (psylian life is a very recognizable mechanic by itself) and the visual effect would be a bit intrusive so I consider it a downsides that I'm not sure would be worth it in this case. An alternate frame like enchantment-creatures on Theros could have been cool but we don't have the technology to do that here.
My main issue is that they are way too complicated for what they're worth I think. I don't know how simpler it is possible to get them.
Maybe we could remove the effect from exile but then they don't really do anything.
If we use simpler triggers like "Whenever you gain life", they all accumulate counters at very different speed while the blue and green ones need specific triggers like "whenever a creature you control blocks" or "whenever an opponent gains life" that feel off compared to the rest.
Obviously they're all extremely wordy, I checked and they all fit within the MTGCardsmith rules text limit but barely.
Still, I wanted to finish a full cycle of them so we can get a better understanding of why they're probably not a good idea ^^