MTG Cardsmith Community Forums
Renaissance Set — Creative Design
This discussion has been closed.
Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Comments
I have been watching this thread for a while and you are definitely getting closer, though I think there should be effects other than +1/+1 counters
EDIT: Woops just found that: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=356077&part=Grave+Betrayal and apparently counters do not pile up with this way of doing things. I considered doing a "crazy" version of it with a new templating like "this creature re-enters the battlefield", but it's probably not worth the confusion.
Another version, this time based more on Buyback/Evoke:
Rebirth {cost} (If you cast this creature for its rebirth cost, when it enters the battlefield, return it to it's owner's hand.)
E.g:
W
Creature — Human
1/1
Rebirth 2W
When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, target creature you control gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
4GG
Creature — Beast
Rebirth 3GG
When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, create a green 3/3 Beast creature token.
Rebirth [cost](If you cast this creature for its rebirth cost, when it enters the battlefield exile it. It gains suspend 2.)
Rebirth [cost](If you cast this creature for its rebirth cost, when it enters the battlefield exile it with N time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter. When the last is removed, cast it without paying its mana cost. It has haste.)
It's way too long. In a perfect world we should try to have a reminder text of 12 or less words, but more realistically our aim should be 22 or less. This is 47 words long.)
Rebirth [cost] (When this creature would die you may pay [cost] if you do exile it then return it to the battlefield and sacrifice it.)
@SpiritDragon, the problem with your idea is that it combos off with itself XD
I'd have to disagree, it seems pointless as all it does is suspend. Which is an existing mechanic.
As for @SpiritDragon's idea, that makes no sense whatsoever.
I was referring to the most recent comments.
Was referring to ningyounk's last comment.
Rebirth [cost] (If you cast this creature for its rebirth cost, when it enters the battlefield exile it with N time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter. When the last is removed, cast it without paying its mana cost. It has haste.)
As for SpiritDragon's idea, I'm referring to the following comment.
Rebirth [cost] (When this creature would die you may pay [cost] if you do exile it then return it to the battlefield and sacrifice it.)
Rebirth [cost] (When this creature dies, you may pay [cost]. If you do, return it to the battlefield then exile it.)
It's definitely an interesting mechanic. The flavour is still a bit dark to me, now it looks like a last breath mechanic which makes the name Rebirth sounds like cruel irony ^^"
@modnation675 The idea behind the mechanic right above is to trigger the ETB effect one last time when it dies
@MagicChess Let's regroup all the different Renaissance mechanics and see if we can agree on one, or at least one group of them!
@everyone Here are all the Renaissance mechanics, even the ones that don't work, please mention in the comments which one you've liked so far: (If I missed a mechanic you liked, don't hesitate to add it to the list.)
01) Rebirth [cost] (When this creature dies, you may pay [cost]. If you do, return it to the battlefield then exile it.)
04) Rebirth [cost](If you cast this creature for its rebirth cost, when it enters the battlefield exile it. It gains suspend 2.)
05) Rebirth {cost} ({cost}, T: Exile this creature then return it onto the battlefield tapped with an additional +1/+1 counter on it. Rebirth only as a sorcery.)
06) Rebirth {cost} ({cost}: If this creature isn't reborn, exile it. At the beginning of your next upkeep, return it to the battlefield reborn with three +1/+1 counters on it.)
07) Renaissance [mana cost} (You gain 2 psylian life, then choose one, you may pay [mana cost to choose another, pay [mana cost only up to two times])
08) Immortalize {mana cost} (Exile this creature from your graveyard: Create a colorless Monument artifact token with indestructible and all abilities of the exiled creature.)
09) Renascence (cost) (Whenever this creature dies with no counter on it, you may pay (cost). If you do, return it to the battlefield with three +1/+1 counters on it.)
10) Revival (Each player chooses a different card type, then each player returns all cards with those chosen card types.)
11) Revival (Target player gains life equal to the amount of life lost this turn.)
12) Educate (Tap target permanent. It gains "{t}: Draw a card".
13) Revolutionize {card type} (Increase all number values in {card type}s you control by 1.)
14) Rewind (When this creature dies, if it isn't a token, create a token that is a copy of it, except it's an Art.)
15) Renascence — {cost}, Untap CARDNAME: [EFFECT]
16) Rebirth (Whenever this creature deals combat damage, you gain psylian life equal to its base power and lose that much nonpsylian life.)
17) Rebirth (Whenever this creature deals combat damage, you gain psylian life equal to the damage dealt and you lose that much nonpsylian life.)
18) Rebirth N (Whenever this creature becomes untapped, you gain N psylian life and you lose N nonpsylian life.)
19) Rebirth {cost} (If you cast this creature for its rebirth cost, when it enters the battlefield, return it to it's owner's hand.)
I personally like the following ones the most right now:
06) Rebirth {cost} ({cost}: If this creature isn't reborn, exile it. At the beginning of your next upkeep, return it to the battlefield reborn with three +1/+1 counters on it.)
==> I think it has a lot of potential on plenty of mechanical levels. It does have a major issue in my opinion: it's already too long and to avoid combat sheningans it probably needs "Rebirth only as a sorcery" on top of it which brings it to 32 words
09) Renascence (cost) (Whenever this creature dies with no counter on it, you may pay (cost). If you do, return it to the battlefield with three +1/+1 counters on it.)
==> Stronger Undying sounds clean and fun ^^ Still at 27 words, though even Undying itself was over the 22 words mark.
14) Rewind (When this creature dies, if it isn't a token, create a token that is a copy of it, except it's an Art.)
==> Tokenizing Undying is a super clean mechanic, the only grief I have against it is that it produces more tokens on top of Virtuoso, and that may be too many tokens. I would also consider making the token legendary to avoid issues with the reanimation of the real card.
15) Renascence — {cost}, Untap CARDNAME: [EFFECT]
==> I like it because it's as simple as a mechanic can get, and frankly the set could use a simple mechanic like this after Discover and Virtuoso. If I had to choose one mechanic right now, I'd pick this one because of its simplicity.
19) Rebirth {cost} (If you cast this creature for its rebirth cost, when it enters the battlefield, return it to it's owner's hand.)
==> It's simple but very very potent. I do think it's still possible to balance it reasonably though. It definitely has some interesting interactions.
____________________________________
On the topic of the archetypes:
Do anyone has any addition/modification to the archetype grid at the end of this comment: http://forums.mtgcardsmith.com/discussion/comment/81535/#Comment_81535
Dethrone (Whenever this creature attacks the player with the most life or tied for most life, put a +1/+1 counter on it.)
I like that it cares about life which makes sense in a life-matters set, and the royalty flavour also happens to align with the Renaissance set. On top of that, it's an aggro/midrange mechanic that complements well the other mechanics in the set.
On the other hand, it brings a couple of issues:
- It plays terribly with life gain mechanics and we have psylian life that is supposed to be a huge deal in the set.
- It's designed for multiplayer. While it works in 1-on-1 games, it's not very dynamic.
- It's an already existing mechanic. While not off-the-table I think a custom set should always favour custom mechanics when possible.
- We're already in a decent spot for number of mechanics. With the Renaissance mechanic it will be 3 + psylian life. At this point, if we add another mechanic it should be more mechanics that fill a specific need than just mechanic thrown in to add substance to the set.
So it's not a perfect fit but I think it still have potentital with a few twists to check more boxes on what we need and become more impactful on the set. The life theme would likely benefit from another mechanic besides psylian life to really be the mechanical focus of the set.
UB Control --> UB Combo Graveyard
UR Disruptive Aggro --> UR Control
BR Combo Graveyard --> BR Disruptive Aggro
Which gives us the following grid:
Side note, we may want to do something that makes this stand out more, seeing as how we don't want to confuse anyone with this, Paliano, and Ravnica...
I'm guessing that Blue/White is going to have a similar flavor to the Consulate in Kaladesh or the Azorious Senate.
That Blue/Black is going to be like the Dimir rogues from Ravnica.
Black/Red to be a fusion of the Rakdos Cult and the Rebels from Kaladesh.
Not entirely sure on the Gruul colors (Maybe hedges/shrubbery XD?!).
Something like paintings could represent the enchantments for White/Green.
White/Black can either be like the Orzhov Syndicate, or the agents of Marchesa from the Conspiracy sets (Knights of the Black Rose).
Black/Green can resemble artists using the act of using a chisel to carve stone (flavorfully screwing with the P/T).
Not really keen on using the word "Art" as a tribe for R/G, I would probably represent them as Enchantment Creatures mechanically, maybe have them be based off of the old stories that would be told to children in the plane.
And I'm guessing that Blue/Green would flavorfully focus outside the city walls, in forests and rivers.
---
This was all just from a BIG guess of what they'd be, I'm honestly just curious on what societies would pop up on here!
(Also! We're missing musicans on the plane! HALP! And I guess we also need artificers, since this is a part of time when things are getting "modernized". And I also think that to make this a unique set is hard, due to the existance of Fiora from the Conspiracy sets. :P)
To answer your question on the flavour of each colour combination, they don't necessarily have to be tied to one specific flavour, it's not a faction set like Ravnica or Tarkir ^^ But it's a good idea to think about the different aspects of society on this plane! This should also help us define the story
For instance, I think you bring some very interesting topics:
- While I do think that monarchy and nobles should be represented (partly because they wear the most typical Renaissance clothes), I would try to avoid any political plot to create a clear separation from Fiora. Which leaves us with the question: What kind of power is in charge and what is their role in the story? Maybe the main protagonist is a princess? Maybe something terrible happens to the royal family?
- There are some clichés that I'd like to avoid if possible because a lot of custom sets start on the same premise. For some reason it's always a city with huge walls and three factions: the oppressive power, the rebels, and the people outside the walls. So please, as much as possible, let's not dig into these (also this is basically the plot of Kaladesh at this point.) For instance, we could try to make the set as optimistic as possible?
On the depiction of Art on this plane, we know that all pieces of art are represented by enchantments because they're ensouled by this plane's magic which brings them to life. I personally think it's similar to the Curse of Wandering on Amonkhet but for art instead of corpses. We should probably not restrict each type of art to a colour combination (mostly because it will be a nightmare to find the right illustrations if we put this kind of restrictions on ourselves), but I agree it could be nice to have each colour be more enclined towards certain types of art, just to dial up the flavour!
On the children story enchantments proposition, in my opinion, it should be restricted to enchantment-creatures = pieces of art and that's it. This is a personal opinion but I think it would hurt how the set reads if we start to mix art enchantments with dream enchantments and story enchantments etc. in the same set.
On the topic of Art tribal, if we have to remove one archetype between Enchantment-matters and Art tribal, I think I'd rather remove enchantment-matters personally. Art is specific to this plane while enchantments are not, so I'd rather have "Art creature you control get +1/+1" than "Enchantment-creatures you control get +1/+1."
For musicians and artificers, I have no doubt we'll have plenty of those in the set ^^ But we don't necessarily have to give them a dedicated archetype. Arguably, musicians have an archetype in Art tribal and artificers in Discover-matters ^^
My favorite mechanics from the list proposed are as follows:
- #14: Rewind (When this creature dies, if it isn't a token, create a token that's a copy of it, except it is an Art.) This wording is incomplete, and I feel that it needs a couple changes. First, it should either exile the original creature, or make the token legendary. Second, it needs a better name; I personally don't like Rewind. Renascence or Rebirth would be better. Finally, we need to downgrade this mechanic a bit. You basically get the creature again for free, with no changes. I think it would be much better either with the creature losing all abilities, or becoming a Virtuoso-style Art token (sacrifice it at the end of the turn).
- #?????: @ningyounk, I'm ashamed! You didn't include one of your own mechanics XD It was "Rebirth {cost} (If you cast this creature for its rebirth cost, when it enters the battlefield, return it to it's owner's hand.)" I like the evoke-and-blink-ness of this mechanic, and I think that it has a lot of possible interesting interactions. @modnation675, this is the mechanic I was talking about. @ningyounk's Suspend one was merely a demonstration to @SpiritDragon, showing how wordy it would be.
@ningyounk, I think that a Virtuoso archetype is better suited to UR than RW. For UR I think it should be either Virtuoso disruptive aggro, or instants/sorceries and Virtuoso. Although, I do like the idea of Virtuoso in a Vehicles-style deck. The only problem is that they die at end of turn, so you'd have to play a good sized Virtuoso spell every turn. As for Golgari colors, I think that disruptive aggro could work, as long as we emphasize the beauty part of it. Also, we have no Go Wide archetype, and while it isn't needed, we have two enchantment archetypes (GW and RW), so I think one could be converted to go wide.
For Rewind, we have some good examples of the way to balance it with both undying and persist, those mechanics didn't need to downgrade the creature (well persist did, but undying even boosted the creature when it came back, so we're right in the middle.)
So, for the changes in the archetype grid:
- UR Control Instant/Sorceries --> UR Disruptive Aggro Art Tribal (Virtuoso): Ok, I pushed it in Boros to have an overlap in White with the enchantment archetype but if we remove the enchantment-matters archetype, I'd rather have it be a UR Disruptive Aggro archetype as well. Though I wouldn't know where to put the Control archetype, so maybe just Control UR Virtuoso for now?
- Removed GW Midrange enchantments-matter: Yeah it does create friction with the Art theme, it's a bit awkward. Should we consider removing the enchantment type from Art creatures entirely since it doesn't do anything specific without this archetype? Art doesn't *have* to be enchanted to be alive, it can be regular creatures, which saves us some space.
- Go Wide: Sure, let's try to fit it in, how about RW Go Wide Tokens? This way it overlaps on Red with the UR Virtuoso archetype. (Also, the overlap in red between RW tokens and BR Sacrifice should work pretty well.)
- I'm a little stuck for the GW archetype to replace enchantments, all I know is it's supposed to be midrange and play well with the other archetypes in white and green. Here are a few ideas:
--> GW Protection (a loose theme based on things like hexproof, indestructible, +1/+1 counters, defenders and life gain).
--> GW Untap.
--> GW Big Creatures or GW Small Creatures
--> GW Keyword Soup (Let the creatures share their abilities to create combos)
--> GW +1/+1 counters
--> We could just wait to see what we decide the Renaissance mechanic to be and base this archetype on it, since it's probably going to be midrange anyway?
Changes summary:
UR Control Instant and Sorceries --> UR Control Virtuoso & Art
RW Aggro Virtuoso --> RW Disruptive Aggro Go Wide Tokens
BG Disruptive Aggro Beauty --> BG Beatdown Aggro Beauty
GW Midrange Enchantments --> Removed
2x Control, both share: U
2x Combo, both share: U
2x Disruptive Aggro, both share: R
2x Beatdown Aggro, both share: G
2x Midrange, both share: W
Almost perfect!
E.g: Monstrous with blink:
Rebirth {cost} ({cost}: If it's not reborn, cast this spell from the battlefield. It enters the battlefield reborn with three +1/+1 counters on it.)
Okay, it's not that dramatic, but still.
I don't know if the INCREDIBLE COOLNESS is worth the confusion that will inevitably come up over this mechanic. "Cast from the battlefield" is a technicality that almost none will understand. What does everybody else think?
Sounds pointless compared to the following.
Rebirth {cost} (If this isn't reborn, you may pay {cost}. When you do, exile it, then return it to the battlefield reborn.)
[Cost]: Rebirth (If this creature isn't reborn, exile it, then return it to the battlefield reborn. Rebirth only as a sorcery.)
I like this ability, lot's of design space:
1.) When this creature enters the battlefield, if it was rebirthed, (effect).
2.) When this creature dies, if it was reborn, (effect).
3.) As long as this creature is reborn, it gains/has (effect).
And for interesting support as well
1.) Reborn creatures you control have/get (effect).
2.) Whenever another reborn creature enters the battlefield, (effect).
@Modnation675 @ManaChrome
The exile blink is the proper way to do it but you need both the "use only as a sorcery" restriction to avoid weird combat interactions and the +1/+1 counters for memory issues. So the proper way to write it would be:
Rebirth {cost} ({cost}: If it's not reborn, exile this creature then return it to the battlefield under its owner's control reborn with three +1/+1 counter on it. Rebirth only as a sorcery.)
This is way too long to be the last mechanic of the set (Discover is already too long, we really shouldn't do that twice, that's also why I think the untap one would be good, to compensate.) It's 28 words long when the battlefield-casting is 21 words long, so under the 22 words ideal limit. Also it's new and fun xD
By the way, what's your favourite Renaissance so far? It would really help to have both your opinion
Do you think this would be too much for the U/G color pairing?
I don't know if you saw my previous message, would you have some feedback on the Renaissance mechanic so far? Is there one you like? Or one that you think has potential but needs some modifications? Or maybe that you think none of them is exciting enough? We have some leads, but feedback is what will help us steer the wheel in the right direction now ^^
Discover is a favorite of mine, since I really like the "manipulate the top card of your library" strategies.
I flavorfully looove Imortalize...