Science-themed Set!!!!!!!!!!! --- Concepts

feralitator

I kinda think that cloning creatures might make more sense in biology. Sure, cloning is usually seen in blue, but Selesnya had populate, which was a cloning effect for tokens.

I think Khan Academy's brief description of what physics is about summarizes it fairly well:
'Physics is the study of matter, motion, energy, and force.'

I'm not a master of chemistry or physics by any means, so maybe my personal descriptions are a little off. I think that if you use physics, it could definitely deal with at least a little sound, electricity, magnetism, and that type of stuff, but I think that the motion aspect would be a very good anchor for its playstyle. (Tapping, untapping, haste, ect.)

LordTachanka123

Gotta agree with @feralitator here, physics would definitely be fun if it's based on motion. Also, not applying the colours to certain factions/studies could help here if you want to split chem and physics. Just sayin'.

TheDukeOfPork

About mechanics, I have a few ideas:

• Radical. Some kind of 'attack-trigger' thingy in R/U. 
• Test Subject. A U/G target-based mechanic.
  
• Cognition. Psychoogy theme U/B with exile.
  

That's all I've got, feel free to introduce more ideas for mechanics and feedback for these ones. 
-------------------
@Everyone, is everyone absolutely sure about designing mechanics before we flesh out at least the base of the lore?


@feralitator @LordTachanka123

If we do include motion, then haste would be a favorable archetype. 

feralitator

If this is a faction-based set, I can see these being mechanics. But even if this is a faction-based set, it might be good to have mechanics that can work for more than two colors. For example, magecraft in Strixhaven was in all colors.

I like the idea of Test Subject being a target-based mechanic (And it can definitely be used in all colors). I think that there is potential there, but remember that heroic is already a mechanic, so you'll need to make it different from that.

SpellPiper2213

@TheDukeOfPork I agree that we should probably at least get some of the mechanics down before we do heavy lore.

Maybe Test Subject can be a spell-based mechanic a little like spell mastery; maybe "Test Subject - If targeted creature has the lowest power/toughness, [effect]."

TheDukeOfPork

I was thinking something like this for Test Subjest (I'm not sure about the wording):

(Spells you cast must target this permanent.)

This almost definitely will have some development, or even be deleted as an idea. But it's just an idea! 

I this will allow effects like Heroic (we're not using the mechanic, though) to come in handy in this set. I think it might be cool.


I was reflecting above that if you indicated certain things in the ability than the color could change. Say, above, the card says 'target creature' which makes it worthy to be R/G. Or you could have 'protection from test subjects', making it W. 

I didn't have any ideas for the other mechanics, apart from vague scraps.

About creature types, I was thinking artificer would be prime option since using scientist (especially since the two cards in Magic using the Subtype are UN cards) doesn't seem proffesional.

A final note is that I think the enemy of the scientists could have abilities like:

'Artificers get -1/-1.'

or

'Protection from test subjects'
-----------------------------

@feralitator Thanks for commenting! I believe that test subject would work in at least the colors we'll be using for the scientists. 

@SpellPiper2213 Good to know! I'll do just that!

About Test Subject, your suggestion seems more like it would be called 'Meak' or Feeble.

feralitator

I feel like test subject is a little underwhelming. Maybe something like:

Test Subject (Spells that can target this must target this or another [card of the same card type] with test subject.)

I don't think this is the correct wording, but this basically turns cards with Test Subject into lightning rods for spells. I feel like this is a little bit better since it forces both you and your opponents into targeting specific creatures.

TheDukeOfPork

After some contemplation, I've made some edits to Test Subject, came up with a concept for Cognition, and scraped together some things for at least a base concept for Radical.

Cognition

I tossed around a few ideas for 'psychology' and emerged with this:

Cognition-Exile a card from your hand: {effect}.

I like this because not only is it very B/U, and not only because it provides an activated ability for permanents, but because it's a balancing factor for instants or sorceries.

Test Subject

I was stuck in a bog with this one. I was thinking about @feralitator's feedback...What could I do that wasn't too simple, worthy for all five rarities? I'm a bit spectical about it, but this is it:

Test Subject (Spells you control that target this {card type} cost {2} less to cast.)

I thought about adding some more to it, but I doubt I will:

Test Subject (Spells you control that target this {card type} cost {2} less to cast. Spells your opponents cast cost {2} more to cast.)

Again, it's probably better just to keep it simple.

Radical Concepts

Now, I barely have anything...

Really, this is my concept so far:
 
Radical N (Attacking creatures ____unless you____)

Don't feedback on this one, please give me ideas.

TheDukeOfPork

Anyone?

feralitator

Cognition:

I like the idea of interacting with your hand, but I feel like cognition is just an "as an additional cost to cast this spell" effect. You may have seen this, but in my set, there was one version of the mechanic "dive", which was an "additional cost" mechanic. I think you might run into the same problem that I ran into, which was that there wasn't too much design space, apart from a few instants, sorceries, and 1-2 creatures.

Test Subject:

This seems balanced? You might decide to change the cost reduction based on playtesting, but I think it's fine to keep it at 2 for the time being.

(Also, the token in your example should be spelt Specimen, not specimin)

Radical:

There is a bunch of ways that you could go with this, and remember that it doesn't need to be an attacking ability. The dictionary definition of radical is "relating to or affecting the fundamental nature of something (especially of change or action)". Maybe radical is some form of triggered ability relating to some change of the board state? Just a thought.

SpellPiper2213

@TheDukeOfPork I agree with @feralitator, the current Test Subject mechanic seems relatively good. I think the second iteration you had of Test Subject could be reworked as a test subject having Ward 2.

TheDukeOfPork

@feralitator @SpellPiper2213

I'm glad that you agree on Test Subject! Unfortunately, I don't know how to playtest?
--------------------

On Cognition, I agree that it's a bit iffy. I saw dive, I agree but when I designed the mechanic I forgot about Dive.

I was thinking, then I thought about alternate costs?

Cognition (You may exile a card from your hand instead of paying this spell's mana cost.)

But then again, that would only work on cards that aren't especially good. So maybe vary it to something like this?

Cognition N (You may exile N cards from your hand as you cast this spell. If you do, draw a card.)

I don't really like it, but it's all I have in my locker.
----------------

Radical is a tricky one...

I might just bin it....

feralitator

To playtest, I'd personally just make a bunch of cards with Test Subject, print them out on pieces of paper (I suggest just putting the cards you make in card sleeves, so you don't need to tape or glue any of your cards), and then play a few games with them. After a few games, you might notice Test Subject underperforming or overperforming, and then you can change the mechanic from there.

There's probably another way to playtest, but I think that's a fairly simple way to do it if you don't want to download something on your computer.

-----------

I want to confirm, are you planning on making this a faction set? If yes, then let's see what we can do with Cognition. If not, then I'd suggest trying to make mechanics that can fit into at least three colors.

TheDukeOfPork

@feralitator

Yes, I've asked a few of my friends and they agree on factions.

I don't have a printer.

feralitator

I know that there are a few simulators that allow you to upload custom cards. The ones that I know of are Cockatrice, Untap, and Tappedout.

I know that you don't really need to download anything for Tappedout (Unless you want card images). The one problem with Tappedout is that you can't directly play against another person, (At least to my knowledge) so you'd have to playtest two decks side by side, and play against yourself.

I don't think that you need to download anything with Untap, but I'm not sure, and it's pretty unfamiliar to me, so I'm not sure exactly how it works.

I know that Cockatrice does require a download, but I don't know anything else about it. I know that Arceus8523 is using Cockatrice for their EM standard, so if you want to use that, I'd suggest asking them about it.

---------------------

Since you want to take the factions route, I think there are two options for what type of mechanics you want.

- The Ravnica approach, where each faction has their own signature mechanic. I think that the one thing to consider with this approach is that there probably won't be a mechanic with a lot of "wow factor" (A high "wow factor" mechanic would be something like Adventure or Mutate).
- The non-Ravnica approach, where there are a few general mechanics that work in all colors, and each faction just has their own playstyle. Think of the Strixhaven colleges, as they don't rely on the mechanics of the set, but rather incorporate them into their cards.

LordTachanka123

Personally, I think using Test Subject as a mechanic would be really good for all the factions, as Test Subjects are just something in all sciences. Mostly. Also, what kind of factions? Monocolored, two-colored, wedges or shards(NEPHILIM????)?

TheDukeOfPork

I'm definitely thinking of taking the Strixhaven route, with a few mechanics that cover all design space. 

That's why I'm a bit shaky on the radical and cognition mechanics. 

Can you play with decks on tappedout?

TheDukeOfPork

@LordTachanka123 ;
two-colored probably.

feralitator

I don't think you can play against someone with decks on Tappedout, but you can open two different tabs, and click on the playtest button while looking at a deck. That way, you can kinda play against yourself with two decks.

feralitator

If you are doing two-colored factions, do you plan on using only five of the color combos?

TheDukeOfPork

Yes.

feralitator

Do you mind if I share what color combo I think that each science could be?

TheDukeOfPork

@feralitator, feel free!

Sorry for the lack of posting, I haven't got round to playtesting, I've had a lot on my mind and a lot to do! Hope you don't mind, and I'll playtest as soon as possible!

feralitator

So there was one main thing that I took note of before creating these color combo ideas. Color combos would probably be best represented if they were different from the past. This means that BG can't be Biology, since that's copying Witherbloom. I think there were a few others that I kept in mind, but they weren't as science-focused as Witherbloom.

Note: There's still a bunch of different ways to do this, so my ideas aren't some "optimal choice" or anything like that, I just think that this might be a neat way to represent these sciences.


Geology + (Biology?) - RG

• I think this one makes a fair amount of sense. It might be possible to focus only on Geology, but I think that Biology as a backup might be good.

- Red can care about land destruction
- Green can care about land generation

Physics - UR

• A big aspect that could be focused on in this color combo is motion. I personally think that tapping and untapping could represent motion pretty well, but attacking probably works just as well.

- Red can care about speeding your creatures up (Haste, Untapping, increasing power)
- Blue can care about slowing your opponent's creatures down (Tapping, bouncing creatures, etc.)

Psychology + Forensics - WB

• This one might not feel as sciency as the others, and WB might seem like a strange color combo, but I think this idea might be pretty intriguing. 
• This may or may not work, but I think it might be interesting to instead of focus on psychology as a whole, you maybe could focus on criminology, forensics (science used to identify criminals), and the psychology of a criminal. I wouldn't say these are police (more like detectives like sherlock).

- White can care about justice within the law (Pacifying creatures, preventing damage)
- Black can care about justice using any means necessary (Destroying creatures, hand attack)
(Could be like a good cop, bad cop style faction)

Chemistry/Alchemy - BG

• Technically, alchemists in early history are considered to be the first chemists. Maybe you use that as some kind of base?

- Black can care about poisons that harm enemies (-1/-1 effects, maybe avoid poison counters)
- Green can care about potions that buff creatures you control (+1/+1 effects/counters, I'd avoid using both +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters in the same set)

Astronomy - WU

• This is my weakest idea, as I don't currently have a good idea to translate it into mechanics, other than using enchantment matters, which overlaps into Theros territory unless you have a good enough distinction between the two.

Zaheer_The_Grim

@feralitator, I don't know what to do for white besides enchantments for Astronomy, but I know that blue could use scrying and possibly drawing.

TheDukeOfPork

@Everyone Sorry about the long pause on this set. I have finally playtested for Test Subject!

Results: It won games against red particularly. It was underplaying in black. Overall, generally balanced but we'll probably need a lot of colorless mana in this set for it to work.

New mechanic ideas:

Edit (Edit is just my preffernce of name) a {cardtype} (Search your graveyard, library and hand for a {cardtype} and exile it. You may cast it from exile later. It can't target a creature you control.)

This mechanic can easily be simplified, it is just my variable at this moment.

TheDukeOfPork

bump

TheDukeOfPork

BUMP!!!

feralitator

It's ok if Test Subject isn't used much in specific colors. Any mechanic used in five colors is bound to lean in one color's favor. For example, Domain is a mechanic that cares about each type of basic land you control, but green is the color that mana ramps more often than other colors.



Looking at the Theros Heroic cards can give you a good indication of what colors target creatures the most. I'd say that the colors targeting your creatures the most are WRG (Which all usually have pump spells of some kind). By that logic, I think it would probably make sense to have more cards that have or care about targeting in WRG than in UB.

---------------------------------------------------------

In regards to edit, I feel like it's very strong, but it also goes against Test Subject at the same time. Being able to essentially foretell a card from anywhere seems very strong, and there's so many cards that won't care about the targeting part at all. I could see control decks using edit as a way to get boardwipes or their finisher card from anywhere, and that seems a little too problematic.

---------------------------------------------------------

How about something like:

Hypothesize - Name a card, then reveal the top card of your library. If the revealed card has the same name as the named card, [Effect].

You could compare it to Kinship or Clash, but is used in a different way. Kinship was considered to be a design failure, but I think that a major difference between Kinship and Hypothesize is that Kinship only cared about creatures, and Hypothesize can work with any type of card. Another major factor that should be considered is that scry wasn't used much at the time. There is a good amount of deck manipulation nowadays that could allow you to know the top card of your deck, but even if you don't know the top card of your deck, there's still a chance to get lucky with your guesses.

TheDukeOfPork

Ok I'm back so I guess so is the set. 


I'm thinking a mechanic for each colour right know.

Here are some general ideas for each mechanic for each color.

Blue---Library reveal 

White---Attacking and blocking

Red---Exile

Black---Sacrifice

Green---Token creation

Over the next few weeks, I will attempt to adapt these ideas into mechanic ideas.

Please feedback