MTG Cardsmith Community Forums
Renaissance Set — Creative Design
This discussion has been closed.
Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Comments
Very true.
how about this
Rewind {working on the name} (when this creature dies, if it isn't a token, put a token that is a copy of it onto the battlefield, except it gains the creature type Art)
as for name ideas i have had
Rewind
unlife
Translate
repaint
reDesign
im open for suggestions here
Outburst N (Draw N cards. At the beginning of your next turn, discard down to N cards.)
{cost}: Outburst N (Until end of turn, this creature's base power becomes N and its base toughness becomes 1.)
Outburst N (You gain N life. At the beginning of your next turn, you lose N + 1 life.)
...And some Renaissance mechanics:
Revival (Each player chooses a different card type, then each player returns all cards with those chosen card types.)
Revival (Target player gains life equal to the amount of life lost this turn.)
Educate (Tap target permanent. It gains "{t}: Draw a card".
Revolutionize {card type} (Increase all number values in {card type}s you control by 1.)
I was looking at the color pie idea you presented earlier, and I couldn't help but feel inspired. What about this for a mythic black horror?
Twisted Savior
2BB
Creature - Horror
3/4
Deathtouch
As long as you are at exactly 1 life, creatures can't attack you.
While I can see where you're coming from with flavor, (person dies, art immortilizes them in a sense, e.g. Van Gogh or Picasso) your mechanic hits a little too close to embalm or eternalize, both very recent mechanics that create token copies.
@brcien, what are life counters and what are charge counters? Are you suggesting bringing back the original charge counters on artifacts?
@pkfdre: @Lujikul is right; your mechanic is WAY too close to embalm/eternalize.
@Everybod-- No, wait XD uh.... @All_Designers
Finally in my little series of bicolor archetypes: Enemy colors!
- WB: These colors are enemies because white seeks order, and believes that every individual has to contribute to society as demanded by the greater good (i.e. not selfishly); while black wants power above all else and doesn't care what the consequences are. To white, black is destructive, selfish, and impairs society. To black, white is being stupid and idealistic. But since white protects and black destroys, we achive balance in a deck. This pairing is exhibited very well in Mardu Vehicles, where we have white giving us cards like Selfless Spirit and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar that back up and protect your creatures, while black provides Fatal Push (in some builds; usually sideboarded in most), Unlicensed Disintegration, and (indirectly) Scrapheap Scrounger to disrupt your opponent with removal and a recurring creature. In our set, I can't make a prediction as to what kind of deck WB will be, since it tends to be Zombies and I don't know how strong our zombie tribal is going to be here. Mechanically, I can predict psylian life, and I dunno what else. If we have a life swing mechanic, probably that.
- UR: Blue is about perfection, enlightenment, and patience, while red is reckless, spontaneous, and breaks all the rules, so it's natural that these colors are enemies. But synergistically, these colors tend to work well with instants and sorceries. Both feature looting, and both have card advantage to power your burn in red, while blue protects you with counter spells and red protects you with removal. For sure, this combo will turn out to be controlling, with psylian life, lots of Virtuoso, and a smidgeon of Discover.
- BG: Black is selfish and cares nothing for boundaries. Green believes strongly in the balance of nature, therefore: to green, black is disturbing the delicate balance in the world, and to black, green is imposing a disadvantage on itself by its views. However, with green to increase mana production and to bring out big creatures, and black to get rid of the opposition, this archetype works. BG Energy, featuring Winding Constrictor, was a popular deck in AER, though I don't think it ever made it into the Top 8 (I might have just missed it XD). In this set, it will most likely be big on Discover, with (of course) some psylian life most likely added in.
- RW: Red wants to be free and unconstrained, while white tirelessly seeks order. This is where these colors clash. However, both are aggressive colors, and with the added bonus of white protection, this combo can do great things. Before Smuggler's Copter was banned, RW Vehicles was The Deck in Standard (then all the Vehicles players just shrugged and changed it to Mardu XD), because of this very combination. In our set, this archetype will probably result in an aggressive deck with psylian life and some Virtuoso.
- GU: Since green believes in destiny, and blue believes in each person's potential and ability to sculpt their own path, it is inevitable that these colors disagree. But as controversial as this gap in belief is, the colors work well together. Blue stalls the board for green's big, game-ending creatures, while green gives mana advantage and blue gives card advantage. Especially with the recent GU ramp synergy in Amonkhet, the mana-and-card-advantage of this archetype has lots of potential. Mechanics: Psylian life and a ton of Discover.
I think it's interesting enough that we should at least dicuss pros and cons. A few concerns I have:
-It pushes the Art theme really hard, maybe too much, if we have Virtuoso on top of it.
-There's a lot of friction with Virtuoso as they both require a different type of Art tokens, and convey a different flavour. And I don't think we can get rid of the living-art mechanic, neither do I think Rewind would be better at it even after a few flavour tweaks.
-There is the usual memory issue with which creature is a token.
-It's complex, and the set probably wouldn't mind something simple at this point.
I really like the name Redesign by the way, though it's not as vocal about the Renaissance theme as other options.
@Gelectrode Aah thanks a lot it's always great when someone does this kind of posts with plenty of mechanics idea, it really helps define the direction we want!
-Outburst 1: I like it but it frictions with Discover for card flow and the discard ride makes me think it would fit a graveyard set better.
-Outburst 2: This one is really fun and original I like it a lot, we should consider pros and cons.
-Outburst 3: This one is actually a downsides ability, it doesn't really do anything by itself, and it doesn't even take advantage of the flashy life mechanic of the set so I'm not a fan.
-Revival 1: It's too strong and also redundant on multiple cards.
-Revival 2: Funny but would probably makes the game too long I think and crush any aggro deck. Also redundant.
-Educate: The flavour is delightful and it's very original. I like it a lot and I would like it better in conjunction with a mechanic that untapped things. It's another action keywords though, it frictions with Discover.
Revolutionize: This is Un-territory unfortunately, it just breaks too many rules, but I like the concept, there are ways to do it I think (that was what I was going for with the crotchets for instance).
I like the Mythic a lot, it fits the set perfectly! I do think these abilities are monowhite though ^^
@brcien This brings a lot of issues I'm affraid:
-You can mix the two types of counters between them.
-You can mix each type of counters with +1/+1 counters.
-No mechanic in the block uses either life or charge counters for now.
It did gave me an idea: Undying with three or four +1/+1 counters? Could have a cost associated to it on the death trigger?
Renascence (cost) (Whenever this creature dies with no counter on it, you may pay (cost). If you do, return it onto the battlefield with four +1/+1 counters on it.)
@MagicChess Perfect! I'll post a complete summary of what you just wrote later and give feedback on what I think we can improve from there.
Hey, what do you think about this?
(Trigger effects), deviate this creature. If you do (benefits). (Exile this creature and any permanent attached to it and return it to the battlefield at the beginning of your next upkeep.)
It inspired me a mix between the blink idea, Undying, and Monstruous:
Rebirth {cost} ({cost}: If this creature isn't reborn, exile it. At the beginning of your next upkeep, return it to the battlefield reborn with three +1/+1 counters on it.)
@MagicChess The idea of immortalizing someone through art or fame is interesting in a Renaissance settings and I like it a lot, that's definitely something that should show up in the set even if not through a mechanic. That said, what we really need is a Renaissance mechanic because we're trying to answer a specific problem (Renaissance is not a very loud theme even though it's supposed to be our main theme.) We can only put that many mechanics in the set, and I think this aspect if secondary in our priorities for now.
- When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, you gain psylian life equal to its power.
- When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, if it's reborn, destroy all other creatures.
- As long as CARDNAME is reborn, it has indestructible.
Immortalize {mana cost} (Exile this creature from your graveyard: Create a colorless Monument artifact token with indestructible and all abilities of the exiled creature.)
https://mtgcardsmith.com/view/in-memoriam-1
Here's the little tweaks I would do:
- I wouldn't make the players keep track of their graveyard outside a graveyard set. They are already going to focus a lot more on the life changes, we can't ask them to track too many things --> Death trigger or even exile from the battlefield.
- Artifact Monument should probably be enchantment Art in this context. But I'm conflicted about having two different mechanics making two different tokens with the same name. Another kind of enchantment?
- Indestructible is cute but I doubt it's worth the extra words.
- The main priority is still to help the Renaissance theme be louder, but this can probably fit the bill with the appropriate name.
A try with those tweaks:
Rebirth {cost} ({cost}, Exile this creature: Create a colorless Art enchantment token with all its abilities.)
It may induce confusion with which creature is actually an enchantment, but the right token should help fix that. I'm also unsure of the design space it has though.
We have to do this because we are struggling too much to keep Renaissance as the focus of the set. It lacks too much in recognizable tropes, there's no such thing like pyramids, or mummies that immediatly makes you think of Renaissance like they would make you think of Egypt sadly
On the THIS IS A RENAISSANCE SET (or TIARS) mechanic: I think that if we want to make an enchantment art token (which I like the idea of), it would have to be the same one as in Virtuoso, which is annoying since it gets sacrificed at the end of the turn. However, a TIARS mechanic is really needed right now. I think we have three options: (1) Make it a different kind of token, (2) say, "screw the similarity," or (3) give up on this kind of a mechanic. To #2, I say, "Screw saying 'screw the similarity'! It's way too complicated and annoying for players to have to remember which kind of art token their thing is." To #3 I say, "Maybe later, but I think we can still do this! Optimism!" And to #1 I say "Why not!" Since this ability doesn't create a creature, just an enchantment or artifact with the creature's abilities, we can use a different token. Perhaps an artifact Sculpture or Monument? Or an enchantment Memory? Or, if we like my "words have power" thing, an enchantment Inscription (or something like that).
*effect 1
*effect 2
*effect 3
the highlight here is that the renaissance, being a period of change, not all thoughts were the same, thus the namesake mechanic would not always do the same, and we can Gage its power in multiple ways, more or less effect choice, higher or lower cost repeat cost, amount of life gained, how many times can the mana cost be payed, these nobs represent the renisance in my opinion.
The more I think of it, the more I realize it's probably a bad idea to make two mechanics that create different tokens in the same set, even for diversity purpose. And I'm still not convinced that the design space of Immortalize is worth the trouble. I think so far the Renaissance mechanic that made me think the most has been the remodeled blink though it has a wordiness issue:
Rebirth {cost} ({cost}: If this creature isn't reborn, exile it. At the beginning of your next upkeep, return it to the battlefield reborn with three +1/+1 counters on it.)
@pkfdre A modal mechanic like escalate is an interesting option ^^ A few issues from my point of view:
-The addition of psylian life in the middle feels quite forced.
- I'm not sure I would be able to find it a proper Renaissance flavour.
- It's a bit difficult to word properly, my best guess would be to take the reminder text of Escalate and the rules text of the Confluences then mix them together in a blender.
Good luck for your review! =D (Also you made me google "eagle scout board" xD)
So, let's go back on those archetypes now that MagicChess has completed his first draw:
WU Control
UB Control
BR Disruptive Aggro
RG Ramp Beatdown
GW Midrange Go Wide
WB Midrange Life Swings
UR Control Instant/Sorceries
BG Ramp Midrange
RW Aggro
GU Tempo
Here's the most important things to me:
- The balance of archetypes seems very reasonable except a few details. I think there are too many control (WU UB UR) and ramp (RG BG GU) archetypes, and not enough aggro and disruptive aggro archeypes (BR RW). To fix that, I would focus RG more on beatdown Aggro (Ramp --> Aggro) and twitch UR a little to put it onto Disruptive Aggro (Control --> Disruptive Aggro).
- There needs to be a balance between directional archetypes (E.g: RW Vehicles in Kaladesh) and nondirectional archetypes (E.g: RG Tramply in amonkhet). Right now, I think the balance favours nondirectional archetypes way too much.
- Some archetypes are going to be expected by players in any set and we should make sure they are here one way or another. Here we're lacking a graveyard archetype and a tribal archetype for instance.
- Mechanics of the set should be highlighted by a bicolour archetype. I'm going to consider WB lifeswings as the psylian life archetype, we need a colour combination caring about Virtuoso in some way, and another one for Discover. Also, we talked about an enchantment theme? This is the time to decide where to put it!
Here's a modified version of your archetype grid with the modifications above (it's an example, there are a thousand ways to do this):
WU Control
UB Control Rogue Tribal (Art stealers)
BR Disruptive Aggro Suicide (Sacrifice and life payments)
RG Aggro Go Tall
GW Midrange Enchantments
WB Midrange Psylian Life Swings
UR Disruptive Aggro Virtuoso
BG Graveyard
RW Aggro Go Wide
GU Tempo Discover (Green Explorers/Blue Inventors)
N.B: One of the problems with this grid is that GW enchantment and UR virtuoso don't have an overlapping colour, if anyone has an idea to fix this? :/Also it would be cool to make some space for the Beauty archetype that cares about your power/toughness balance. It would go well with a colour-combination that has a lot of pump spells.
On RG Ramp: Each colour combination with green will still have a bit of ramp thanks to green, but they can't all be focused on ramp. It's basically choosing between putting http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=427718 or http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=savage+ventmaw in the set ^^ RG will still have a bit of ramp, but putting it in aggro means it will be more focused on dealing damage than generating mana advantage. If you look at Amonkhet for instance, RG is not a ramp archetype but you can still build a RG ramp deck if you want ^^ Would you be ok with that?
On enchantments: I have an idea, how about doing RW Art Tribal instead of UR Virtuoso? This way it overlaps in white with the GW enchantress archetype? And as Art is enchantments on this plane, we make more Art enchantments fueling both archetypes.
On Virtuoso: The Virtuoso archetype is important even if it's in all colours. For instance, there is cycling in every colour in Amonkhet, but the cards with "Whenever you discard or cycle a card, EFFECT" are still focused in one colour combination (blue/black).
On Beauty: Ok, let's try it in Golgari colours, how about a disruptive aggro archetype to go with both green pump spells and black shrink spells?
To even things out, we need to put back Instant/sorcery matters on Izzet since it lost the focus on Virtuoso, and the graveyard archetype has disappeared since Golgari now cares about beauty, so I moved it to Rakdos.
Now it looks like this:
Rebirth {cost} ({cost}, T: Exile this creature then return it onto the battlefield tapped with an additional +1/+1 counter on it. Rebirth only as a sorcery.)
--> I think the "additional" lets you put the same number of counters it had before plus one? It's a bit like Outlast but it triggers ETB abilities again so you can have effects proportional to the creature's stats and make it grow each time, like Eternalize.
E.g: When this creature enters the battlefield, you gain life equal to its power.