Renaissance Set — Creative Design

Faiths_Guide

That makes me think of my "Egotist Cycle" seen here:
http://forums.mtgcardsmith.com/discussion/comment/64219/#Comment_64219

ningyounk

@syntheticreign Oh, when I was talking of Land-Matters set, I was talking about Zendikar actually XD Wizards plan their sets about 7 years in advance, and always reuse the themes that have worked well since many years: graveyard-matters, multicolour sets, artifact sets, etc... But they have a few slots in that plan to try more original themes. That's how Zendikar happened, they were trying a bottom-up Lands-matter set. What I was trying to say is that if "Lands-matter" can be a theme even though the design space is limited, then "Life-matters" may be good enough as well ^^

modnation675

I'm not sure about how to make these work in multi-color well. They feel quite bipolar mechanically.

Mainly some more than the rest.

brcien

oh, you are super right so much shuffling. I don't think Grandeur is a Legendaries matters effect even if that was the reason it came about originally. Flavor wise, it could go for anything grandiose or beautiful. The other work around I thought of would be cards that act as every card name while in hand but that doesn't seem that good.

I don't know why life total matters came to your mind, but it made me think of some cards I made for the Vryn thread.

modnation675

I think grandieur should be ditched as it just doesn't work often enough to be worth card space.

Edit: Underdog also is really restrictive in an unfun way.

Tigersol

The renaissance was also the real awakening of modern science, so we should include that.

modnation675

I haven't seen any mechanics of that theme be demonstrated yet. Other than some mechanics I mentioned.

ningyounk

@modnation675 About the bimodal mechanics, where you talking about the Egotist cycle or the life-matters theme?

If the latter, there's definitely a bit more design space than what I mentioned. I don't know if it's enough to support the theme of a set, but here's more examples of ways to interact with life total:
- Gaining life
- Paying life or loosing life
- Stealing life
- Caring about being at N life or less, N life or more, or exactly N life (1, 10, 20 and starting life total being the popular choices I think)
- Setting life to N (once again, 1, 10, 20 or starting life total being more meaningful)
- Exchanging life with an opponent, averaging the life of players
- Caring about not losing life
- Comparing life totals (having more life, less life, at least N life more, at least N life less)
- Bonus proportional to your life total (For each 10 life in your life total, etc.)
- Malus proportional to your life total (Gets -X/-X where X is your life total)
- Effect proportional to the difference in life total between two players
- Caring about the opponent losing life
- Caring about the opponent being at a certain life total (higher/lower/equal to N)
- Avatars (creatures with power and/or toughness proportional to life total)
- Caring about certain digits in the life total, or if your life total is odd/even
- ...

--> It may be possible to distribute those effects in some sort colour pie of life-matters effects life I did above. I admit it's a weird idea tough XD

ningyounk

@Tigersol Yes, this theme seems to come up a lot, I think we should definitely think about a Science/Invention mechanic ^^ Any suggestion @anyone?

I was thinking, maybe a mechanic about Genius could link both artists and inventors?

modnation675

I think that shouldn't be done in so many ways. It makes the idea of choice feel less significant.

A few of these are good, but most are known to be bad overall.

brcien

@modnation675 naw, in limited most decks would have either Grandeur or Underdog rolling so half the time you're facing someone who is trying to have more life than you. In constructed, you play life pay and burn spells or discard stuff. Last hope should actually have way higher cmc since dropping it right after an avenger of zendikar is ridiculous.

modnation675

For the first, statistically incorrect objectively speaking. As for underdog, I have an issue with requiring both hand size and life total.

The first has been confirmed by WOTC as the reason they abandoned it by the way.

modnation675

I forgot to mention that I'm actually a big fan of grandeur. Which is why it's disappointing that WOTC has proven this.

brcien

@modnation675 the hand size one is questionable to me since if it gets to topdecks you're in a bad pois, but I think having both opens the door for having some really strong spells where just one seems like you would still have to really limit the possibilities with it.

brcien

Also meant Checkmate or Underdog** not Grandeur or Underdog

ningyounk

@modnation675 Well this list is more a proof-of-concept that "Life-Matters" could have enough design space to be te focus of a set. Though I agree in pratice it would be a bad idea to have all those ways of caring about life at once XD

My point is, the same way we have artifacts sets with:
- If you control an artifact, CARDNAME gets +1/+1.
- As an additional cost to cast this spell, tap an artifact you control.
- Artifacts you control get +1/+1.
- Create a colorless 1/1 Thopter artifact-creature token with flying.

We could have things like:
- If you gained life this turn, CARDNAME gets +1/+1.
- As an additional cost to cast this spell, pay 1 life until your life total ends with 1.
- As long as the difference between your life total and the life total of another player is greater than 5, creatures you control get +1/+1.
- Distribute 6 life among any number of players.

modnation675

@ningyounk
I never said no to the idea as a whole. I agree that it's a great theme, but is best done as a sub-theme.

I know that it has been done before after all.

Tigersol

To be honest, underdog is a mechanic that really doesn't fit in here. Since this Is an age of expansion having a mechanic rewarding you for lack of expansion doesn't make sense.

brcien

Yeah, Checkmate was the one I wanted to note more

MagicChess

Sorry I've been inactive for the past couple days. I love where this is going!

Faiths_Guide

@MagicChess
Where's it going?

Lujikul

Life matters could be a decent subtheme. After all, the renaissance was when people starting caring about quality of life.

brcien

Just as an brainstormer, how do you make life matters cool, new, and interesting?

ningyounk

@brcien You're definitely asking the core question about this idea. Basically, whether there is large, original and interesting design space defines whether or not it has the shoulders to be the mechanical theme of a set.

It probably would require a mechanic caring about life. For instance, the following one is interesting because you have multiple ways of achieving this restriction depending on the colour you're playing:

Prodigy — If the difference between your life total and an opponent's life total is 5 or more, [EFFECT].


But here are other basic concepts depending on what the set needs:

Ecstatic N (Whenever you gain or lose life, this creature gains +N/+N until end of turn.)

Discover (Look at the top card of your library. You may put that card in your hand and lose 2 life. Otherwise, put it in your graveyard and you gain 2 life.)

Ensoul {cost} (Whenever you gain or lose life, you may cast this for its Ensoul cost. Each life you gained or lost pays for {C}.)


And more original takes that could still maybe produce a decent amount of commons:

Genius — As long as your life total is odd, EFFECT.

Hysteria (Whenever a player would gain or lose life, that player gains or loses 1 additional life.)

Avatar (This creature's toughness is equal to your life total. Whenever it's dealt damage, it deals that much damage to you.)

syntheticreign

I like most of those, although I do have a question. Wouldn't you have to word Hysteria something like "Whenever a player would gain or lose life, they gain or lose 1 extra life instead"? Because otherwise they're gaining or losing infinite life because the ability triggers itself? I don't know, I'm just curious.

ningyounk

@syntheticreign That is very possible XD I'll admit I didn't check the proper wording, and that's not something you see every day xD

Lujikul

If we go along the route of "life matters" as a subtheme, I would advise that we have a Tainted Remedy mimic somewhere.

ningyounk

So what is everyone thinking so far? Do you think "Top-Down Renaissance Life-Matters set" could work based on what I showed so far?

syntheticreign

Ok I'm still new to the terms in Magic so can you explain "top-down" real quick? I could look it up but you guys can probably explain it better

Tigersol

My thoughts on those mechanics:
1. Prodigy
This one is a little too vague. Since almost all games have a period where there is a difference of five in the life totals.
2. Ecstatic
I like this one more, but I think it wouldn't be the most popular of these mechanics in a real set.
3. Discover
Okay, I LOVE this one. It is exactly what the Renaissance is, discovery. It also connects to life gain which is amazing! The one change I would make would be to put it at the bottom of your library rather than your graveyard.
4. Ensoul
This defiantly has potential. But with one mana 5 life spells still in standard, this will be broken.
5. Genius
I like this one, its weird, and I don't think we should use it, but it's very fun.
6. Hysteria
Yes, this one looks good.
7. Avatar
Wow, that's really creative and I would love to see that exist. But I think it should be a card rather than a mechanic.
Overall these are looking great!